385 thoughts on “Politics open thread, January 3-9

  1. SM,

    A quick googling says those spa hyperbaric chambers come equipped with an oxygen concentrator. They don’t use tanks of oxygen.

    Also, unsurprisingly, the spa version is a scam. Not to mention that a oxygen rich environment poses a very serious fire danger.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_1

  2. Thanks Rhett! I saw but didn’t really follow the details of Finn/DD’s conversation on concentrators & tanks.

  3. Trump is not yet ready to concede. I see Trump supporters outraged at the call being leaked, rather than the content of the call. Is there any legal violation here? This knocks Cruz’s audit commission out of the spotlight, but I just have to comment on the ridiculousness of the idea that something like that could be completed in 10 days. We are in really crazy territory here. There is not a shred of proof of these allegations, and they seem to have originated with Trump then been adopted by people closer to the election rather than the other way around. It seems backwards. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-raffensperger-call-georgia-vote/2021/01/03/d45acb92-4dc4-11eb-bda4-615aaefd0555_story.html

  4. What are the chances that his call to Raffensperger was the only one? It is just the one we know about because Raffensperger seems to be one of the few Republicans actually committed to democracy. It is sad to live in this country any more. 74 million people voted for Trump again. We aren’t coming back from the disaster they have made the US.

  5. People have talked about a third party forever, and it hasn’t happened, but does anyone think it might finally happen? Is it possible that those Republicans who finally are admitting that things have gone dangerously cray-cray might break away from their party, perhaps to be joined by more conservative Democrats? Probably just wishful thinking on my part.

  6. NoB, I hope so too. That party would appeal to me, and I know lots of people like me who were Republicans for a long time and now consider themselves independent.

  7. I’ve said this before, but I think changing the primary election system would bring us back to less polarization.

  8. I’m of two minds on a third party:

    •like I said a couple weeks ago on here, if just one party splits, then the other party crushes both smaller parties. That’s why they haven’t split before. BUT both parties seem to be polarizing more and more if both of them split at the same time, no e of the four parties would be the giant.

    •otoh, with both parties polarizing, I can see a middle party with members from Dems and GOP, with progressives on one side and Trumpsters on the other.

  9. I would love to see primaries reformed. I think that has been a big driver of polarization in both parties. One of the reasons I despise AOC so much is because she has shown herself to be far more interested in primarying moderate Democrats in safe Democratic districts than in trying to get Democrats elected in trickier districts. In both parties, primaries are used as a way to grab power, by far rightists and Trump minions on the right, and by AOC’s gang on the left. They aren’t interested in governing because that would require compromise. They are interested in power within their respective parties.

  10. That call to Raffensperger was a doozy, but really not that much different from his call to the leader of Ukraine. I bet he has made lots of these calls. His modicum of business success has been due to a combination of old school mobster tactics and newfangled media whoring. And that is exactly what he brought to the Presidency.

  11. She puts out bills that can’t pass. That is what the Tea Party did under Obama, and isn’t the same thing as actually building legislation that might go somewhere. In fact, if she stopped being so inflammatory, and worked harder at getting more Democrats elected to Congress from swing districts, her bills might have more chance at passing.
    She very well could end up taking over the Democratic party, just as the far right did on the Republican side. All that does is makes polarization even worse, and we end up with a Congress that cannot govern and an electorate that is at each other’s throats.

  12. It’s strange to me that you would think she should work for election of people whose positions she doesn’t support.

    If her choice is to support Democrat A who wants single payer healthcare but can’t win. Democrat B who supports a system like they have in Germany and can win. And a republican who wants to slash Medicaid and end Obamacare. Doesn’t it make sense support B over A?

    In reality wouldn’t support of A result in policies you believe are harmful to the public?

  13. Mooshi, if supporting the candidate likely to win makes most sense, then we both should’ve voted Trump in 2016. I did not. Compromise around the edges can be worthwhile, but why would anyone vote for someone who was just going to toss their ideas aside and go with the winning horse? If you vote for a candidate because you agree with their ideas, then you want to see them fight to put those ideas through.

  14. but why would anyone vote for someone who was just going to toss their ideas aside and go with the winning horse?

    No. The choice is as follows:

    1. Someone who can win and is going to throw your ideas in the trash
    2. Someone who can win and is willing to meet you halfway
    3. Someone who can’t win but agrees with you

  15. Quote o’ the day, from the infamous Georgia call
    “Trump: Oh this isn’t social media. This is Trump media. It’s not social media. It’s really not; it’s not social media. I don’t care about social media. I couldn’t care less. Social media is Big Tech. Big Tech is on your side, you know. I don’t even know why you have a side because you should want to have an accurate election. And you’re a Republican.”.

    Um, yeah. I think this about sums up his presidency. Trump Media.

  16. For this reason, populists are often not very good at using power, even if they are good at obtaining it. This has obviously been true of Donald Trump. Most of the failures of his administration can be understood as forms of choosing fantasy over reality and so failing to use the power at his disposal in a constructive way or using it instead in a destructive or corrosive way. In the wake of the Trump era, the Republican Party will need to find better ways to address the concerns of its populist voters (along with ways of broadening its appeal beyond those voters), and so it faces the challenge of separating fact from fiction and using power effectively…

    …Pointing to Democrats who have done the same in the past is incriminating, not exonerating. “Barbara Boxer did it too” is not an argument for very much worth doing. And the notion that they’re only doing it to make sure their voters’ voices are heard is an admission of derelict leadership.

    Political leaders have a role to play in our system of government that is not simply an expressive or even representative role. Our system does not trust leaders, but it also does not trust the public. It looks to each to restrain and direct the other. Political leaders have an obligation to be honest with their voters and to serve those voters’ interests by connecting their legitimate grievances with the hard realities of governing. They need to choose to address real problems and ignore fake problems. By choosing not to do that, too many Republicans are choosing to fail their voters.

    The cost Republicans will pay for this failure will not necessarily be a political or electoral cost. This kind of cynical performance art is not bad politics right now. And Republicans are pretty well positioned to prosper electorally in the coming decade. Our system grants some modest but meaningful structural advantages to the country party (which for now is the Republican Party) over the city party, demographic changes don’t seem to be playing out politically as the Left imagined they would, and the Democratic Party risks doubling down on a nasty combination of radicalism and elitism that isn’t likely to sell well in American politics. Our parties will probably stay pretty evenly matched, but close calls are likely to break for the GOP for a while.

    from
    https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/failures-of-leadership-in-a-populist-age/

  17. I read that piece yesterday (written by Yuval Levin). It was pretty interesting. NR has pretty much turned against Trump at this point, and in particular, the comments on the articles have shifted in the last few weeks from “let Trump’s concerns be heard” to “we can’t wait to get rid of this guy”. Of course, NR is not really reflective of the average Republican voter.

  18. Hum…the President’s attorney Lin Wood is calling for the arrest and execution of Mike Pence, John Roberts and Mitch McConnell?

    Perhaps unsurprisingly According to documents submitted in court, Wood is estranged from his adult children and his grandchild, reported The Atlanta Journal-Constitution in 2020.

    WTF is wrong with people?

  19. Ah and in a series of recent tweets:

    he tweeted that he believes Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts raped and murdered a child on video

  20. That’s hilarious, WCE.

    And OMG, Georgia! I am stunned. I was expecting a South Carolina style “ahead by 2, lose by 12” scenario. This is going to be interesting.

  21. Ossoff won. No idea why they haven’t called it. Ossoff has a bigger margin than Biden did. Hopefully he gets beyond recount territory. But he won.

  22. I’m just glad this runoff was in a state where the governor and Secretary of State have already shown that they can resist temptation to throw elections (although the governor did earlier engineer his re-election by the strategic removal of thousands of voters and closing polling stations.)

  23. Does anyone follow Heather Cox Richardson on FB or another platform? I have been following her for almost a month and find her perspective interesting. Apparently she is a professor at Boston College. I really enjoyed her discussion about Eisenhower era Republicans.

  24. Does anyone follow Heather Cox Richardson on FB or another platform?

    I read that she’s the most popular person on Substack.

  25. @AustinMom – My mom loves Heather Cox Richardson. She is always about talking her. My mom follows a lot of religious/faith-oriented stuff that I’m not into so I’d mostly done the smile & nod about her, but maybe I will check it out.

    I am cautiously optimistic about Ossoff.

  26. @Ivy – Richardson on FB, puts out a call for questions and then goes live and answers them. She also writes a pretty long post most days. I came across the Q&A and really enjoy those.

  27. @Mooshi – I don’t think we’re going to be in recount territory.

    HFN – you were up mighty early this morning!

    Very exciting day in Georgia. If there is a truer patriot in this country at this moment than Raffensperger, I don’t know who it is. (He is getting credit for standing up to Trump, but he should also receive extraordinary credit for extremely well run elections regardless of the outcome – not always the case for Georgia.)

  28. Using AP data.
    Taking the “98% results in” at face value (not 97.6% or 98.4%) and based on the 4.406M votes counted, there are 90,000 votes still to be counted.
    Perdue needs ~59.4% of those to win.
    So depending on where those outstanding votes are from, it’s the result is still up in the air. IMO.

    I think 50/50 + Kamala will be tough for Biden to get highly partisan stuff thru the Senate. Think Manchin & Sinema. Today’s equity market reaction might surprise some, but not me.

  29. Oh wait, evidently Substack hosts The Bulwark. I don’t subscribe to that (I don’t subscribe to that but I do listen to their podcast because I find Charlie Syke to be uniquely entertaining in his outrage)

  30. “I think 50/50 + Kamala will be tough for Biden to get highly partisan stuff thru the Senate. Think Manchin & Sinema.”

    Yep – no crazy stuff, but no obstruction and gridlock. They’ll be forced to compromise with Bernie and Manchin. To me, that is ideal!

  31. So depending on where those outstanding votes are from, it’s the result is still up in the air. IMO

    The outstanding votes are in 4 of the most democratic counties in the state.

  32. I think 50/50 + Kamala will be tough for Biden to get highly partisan stuff thru the Senate

    Which is fine! The main thing is that legislation, appointees, etc. can at least be brought for a vote.

  33. The mood in Georgia/local reporting right now (11:30 Eastern) is that it’s over. Democrats won and it’s going to be outside the 0.5% margin for recount.

  34. And what is with all these self-publication/vanity press thingies these days? One of my colleagues was recommeding Medium, so I signed up for the 3 sample articles a month or whatever it is. But most of what I ended up reading was really not very good. Now I wish they would stop spamming my inbox

  35. I am a bit worried about the rumors of protests today, both in Washington and in my state capitol (and current city). It’s rainy and getting colder here, which I hope reduces the numbers. I just read the news article about Romney being hassled on his flight to Washington today. I emailed my House Rep who has not come out on either side of this encouraging him not to challenge the results; thanked one Senator for his statement that there is no reason to challenge the results and encouraging him to hold that position. My other Senator is a ring-leader, and nothing from my zip code will matter to him.

  36. DS1 and I were just discussing what things the Democrats should try to do. They should focus on making the economy recover, number one. Speeding up vaccines. And probably after that, tackle strengthening the ACA because that has proven to be quite popular. The next election cycle is in two years so they need to focus on things that are both important and popular with voters.

  37. “So depending on where those outstanding votes are from, it’s the result is still up in the air. IMO.”

    It is over. I don’t know if you all are just traumatized by 2016 or what, but it is over. Maybe not the insanity that the Republicans seem to bring to everything, but McConnell won’t be the majority leader. At least until the midterms.

    I think this is a great outcome. Manchin will hold the line so things don’t go far left. But things will be able to come up for a vote and it won’t be obstructionism all of the time. And maybe this will cause insane candidates and supporters to think a little bit. Probably not. But hope springs eternal.

  38. MM – I think it is a combination of (1) people need to monetize their content to be able to fund what they are doing, (2) a subscription “newsletter” is an easier way to do that than say FB or YouTube, and (3) it tends to come across as more “professional” than other options.

    I agree, I tried Medium too, didn’t like it very much and dropped it. I will say this past year, I have started subscribing (paid) to more news/balanced publications to help keep them in business.

  39. And what is with all these self-publication/vanity press thingies these days?

    From what I can gather online journalism/commentary is virtually impossible to make a living at if you’re just relying on ad revenue. Online ads just aren’t very effective. To make it work you need paid subscribers. That’s where Substack comes in.

    I’m not sure why they call it a newsletter service though. They only e-mail you links to the post. It’s just a blog. I suppose the call it a newsletter service because the newsletter business model was subscription based.

  40. Medium is 90% dross.

    Some journalists, like Yglesias, just want to try to make more money while saying exactly what they think, rather than toeing the editorial line of whatever newspaper or magazine they were working for (Vox, in this case).

  41. Hey Rhett, remember how a couple of times I’ve said “They’re just printing money! There’s going to be massive inflation!” and you’ve said “Nuh uh, it doesn’t work that way, that’s not the theory anymore.” (This links back to constantly forgetting that one has been corrected.) Anyhoo, back in 2010 Ben Bernanke said that quantitative easing works in practice but not in theory. 10 years later, he thinks he has the theory worked out. Here it is:

    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/ben-bernanke/2020/01/04/the-new-tools-of-monetary-policy/

  42. Biden is going to nominate Merrick Garland for AG, so I am thinking Biden believes Ossof won (because he wouldn’t be able to get through a replacement judge for him if Mitch is in power)

  43. Which is fine! The main thing is that legislation, appointees, etc. can at least be brought for a vote.

    Yup, the biggest thing is the judicial nominees will get voted on.

  44. Ossoff won. There are about 50k absentee ballots left to count from heavily Democratic counties. Very little else left to count. He is leading by 0.4% now. He will end up outside the recount margin.

    Trump seems to acknowledge Ossoff’s win. He just told his crazy mob that Purdue and Loeffler “never had a chance”.

    Stacy Abrams should be DNC Chair.

  45. RMS,

    Although he says that low global inflation is the result of a saving glut. My money is is on low birth rates being highly deflationary.

  46. There is such a backlog of legislation that’s been passed in the House but couldn’t become law because McConnell refused to bring it to the floor. I’m looking forward to seeing that stuff move.

  47. City Mom, Abrams has better things to do than get involved with the Democratic Party. Her organization in Georgia has been amazing; I hope she will bring that to other states.

  48. Military/overseas ballots are still out, but there are, at most, 14,000 of them. Not enough to erase Osoff’s lead. It’s over.

  49. “There is such a backlog of legislation that’s been passed in the House but couldn’t become law because McConnell refused to bring it to the floor. I’m looking forward to seeing that stuff move.”

    The whole thing has to start over again. A new Congress and all. So some of the things they already passed will be harder to get thru with a smaller D majority in the House. A more receptive Senate, yes, but once things get opened up again ya never know.

  50. I am going to buy one of Stacey Adams’ books today as a small token of my immense appreciation for the work she has done in Georgia. Wow.

  51. We watched Stacey Abram’s documentary in late October. I really like her a lot. I think one of the problems Democrats have had for years is that they never wanted to do the work of organizing people at the local and state level. Republicans from the 90’s on were better at turning out their voters, especially in non-Presidential races. I think Stacey Abrams showed the power of getting voters registered and to the polls.

  52. “I am going to buy one of Stacey Adams’ books today as a small token of my immense appreciation for the work she has done in Georgia. Wow.”
    I did this today, too! Her romance novel pen name is Selena Montgomery. Of course, if you want less bodice ripping, you can always buy one of the books she wrote under her real name.

  53. I’ve been meaning to get Abram’s book, Minority Leader. Today wold be a good time to do it.

  54. Republicans from the 90’s on were better at turning out their voters, especially in non-Presidential races.

    It was also due to suppression of minority voters who tend to vote Democratic.

  55. DD, that is true, especially after a lot of the Voting Rights act got struck down. But it is the reality that Democrats have to work with. They have to work hard at getting voters past the suppression, and they have to work hard at getting rid of the things that lead to suppression. Democrats can sigh and complain, but ultimately they need to have power to overcome these things and the way to get power is to get more voters out there. Again, Republicans have been working at this steadilly since the 90’s. They knew that having power at the state level would help their national aspirations. They got their voters mobilized for state elections. Democrats didn’t wake up, really, until 2016.

  56. Things seem to be getting ugly outside the Capitol building, although it is hard to tell exactly what is happening.

  57. Pence was just removed by the Secret Service as Trumpers stormed the Capitol building whilst carrying a confederate flag.

  58. My son just saw something about the protests in DC, says it’s striking what a high proportion of people there are white men aged roughly 25-55. He looked for, but didn’t find, the protests Austin mentioned in her city.

  59. Reality, “well, that’s something” says the kid. Having the VP involved makes it a lot more serious than the people wanting to restore the monarchy who tried to take the Bundestag last summer. They had various flags—Prussian, Russian, and Trump/Pence.

  60. Turns out Pence was evacuated, along with others, when the protestors tried to take the bldg, not escorted out in the way I understood.

  61. Trump’s tweet while this is going on:

    Mike Pence didn’t have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country and our Constitution, giving States a chance to certify a corrected set of facts, not the fraudulent or inaccurate ones which they were asked to previously certify. USA demands the truth!

    You all who voted for him really screwed up!

  62. For the Trump supporters here, what are your thoughts on the events happening at the Capitol right now?

  63. SM – Locally there is a small group of Trump protestors outside the Capitol in my city. I saw a brief shot on TV earlier and it was not a huge crowd and so far is peaceful.

  64. I had no idea that Stacey Abrams wrote romance novels! She is a woman of many talents.

  65. “Oh no. They love him! They just can’t help but like the guy!”

    Some people have really, really bad judgment. It continues to astound me.

  66. Thanks Austin.
    The business at the Capital is more physical than things got at the Reichstag—3 cops with bully clubs prevented them from entering there. Of course, Germans are much less prone to physical fights than Americans, don’t really know how.

  67. “Oh no. They love him! They just can’t help but like the guy!”

    When Trump was first elected, some of his supporters said things to the effect of, “This is gonna be fun!!” Yeah, well, what is going on right now is the logical conclusion of that “fun” that Trump brought to the White House.

    From a NYT article that’s up right now:

    “ ‘This is what you’ve gotten, guys,’ Senator Mitt Romney, Republican of Utah, yelled as the mayhem unfolded in the Senate chamber, apparently addressing his colleagues who were leading the charge to press Mr. Trump’s false claims of a stolen election.”

    Yup, this is what you’ve gotten.

  68. “It is a fucking coup attempt encouraged and instigated by Trump. Deplorable.”

    Absolutely

  69. “Yup, this is what you’ve gotten.”

    Yep. But it’s “fun”. And the domestic terrorists armed and taking over the Capitol are “fine people” right? And it was worth the stolen Supreme Court seats, right?

  70. When Trump was first elected, some of his supporters said things to the effect of, “This is gonna be fun!!”

    They fucking squealed like little girls on Christmas morning who have been given a pony. Well your pony has buried the country in shit.

  71. “If those protestors were Black, they’d be covered with Napalm by now.”

    I think the Capitol police are very outnumbered and the protestors are heavily armed. Understandable as to why they are waiting for backup (which I read is coming in the way of National Guard troops).

  72. I bet there are a lot of Russians and Chinese who are laughing their asses off at us right now.

  73. And you know Trump is sitting in his bunker.

    Shithole country. That is what we have.

  74. Is the DoD also Proud Boys adjuncts now?
    There is a suspected bomb detected half a mile from the Capital, the “protesters” are shooting into the chamber, Dapital police are giving gas masks to representatives and using tear gas, but Pelosi’s request for assistance from the National Guard was denied. Holy f***

  75. When Trump wanted a photo op at a church they had no trouble dispersing the crowd with tear gas and rubber bubbles and prop wash. Breaking past police lines draws minimal response? There are still around 46 more states’ votes to get through.

  76. TCM, Scarlett used to live in DC. I wonder if she has friends at this thing. I’m curious what Milo thinks, but recall that about a week after the election, he said he wasn’t looking forward to the lame duck period and what Trump was likely to do, and that he just wanted trump to get out of there.

  77. I bet there are a lot of Russians and Chinese who are laughing their asses off at us right now.

    I’ve seen a subtle shift here when people make small talk about where I am from. Early in the pandemic, strangers seemed genuinely sad about what was happening and inquired if my family was okay. In the past few months, people are less sad, more appalled, and seem to enjoy the reality show that America is putting on for the world. From (many) of the nurse: “When is Trump supposed to leave? I just can’t wait to see what happens!!”

  78. Today is epiphany. One hell of an epiphany (Scarlett is probably at Mass). Two weeks to get through before inauguration.

  79. Mitt is pissed
    ““This is what the president has caused today, this insurrection,” Mr. Romney said.” (according to the NYTimes)

  80. “If there is a truer patriot in this country at this moment than Raffensperger, I don’t know who it is.”

    Stacy Abrams would disagree with you. I don’t think she sees his participation in voter suppression as patriotic.

  81. he said he wasn’t looking forward to the lame duck period and what Trump was likely to do, and that he just wanted trump to get out of there.

    Yeah, and you know what he said to us when some of us said that we regretted some of the previous administration’s actions? “Too fucking little too fucking late.” So back atcha, loverman.

  82. Sedition differs from treason (defined in Article III of the U.S. Constitution) in a fundamental way. While seditious conspiracy is generally defined as conduct or language inciting rebellion against the authority of a state, treason is the more-serious offense of actively levying war against the United States or giving aid to its enemies. Another way of looking at it is that seditious conspiracy often occurs before an act of treason.

    So this is actually treason.

  83. I’m afraid that there are going to be many deaths before this thing ends. Armed insurgents in the Capitol are not going to go quietly.

  84. If Osama Bin Laden were still alive, he’d be laughing at us, too. He didn’t succeed in destroying our Capitol, but we are going to end up doing it to ourselves. I am despondent right now in a way that I have never been despondent before.

  85. Dumping the American flag unceremoniously off the side of the US Capitol to hang a TRUMP flag. Good job, Trump supporters.

  86. NoB, I completely agree with you. I recall exactly where I was on 9/11, but the fact that this is all internal is creating so much more sadness for me.

  87. Don’t worry about the safety of the House members, Lauren Boebert will protect them with her glock.

  88. Taxpayer dollars will be used to repair this damage. Every one of them needs to be subject to civil fines and restitution in addition to being arrested.

  89. Stealing someone else’s tweet—can’t wait to see Biden reach across the aisle to strike compromise with these guys.

  90. And now Northam is sending the VA National Guard because Trump won’t send in DC.

    Statehood for DC NOW.

    “Taxpayer dollars will be used to repair this damage. Every one of them needs to be subject to civil fines and restitution in addition to being arrested.”

    Yep. They should be arrested and prosecuted to the full extent of Federal law and thrown in Federal prison too.

  91. And now Northam is sending the VA National Guard because Trump won’t send in DC.

    Can he do that? I don’t understand who’s responsible for summoning the National Guard in DC.

  92. “Crickets…”

    Google doesn’t turn up results for something that BLM did that is “worse”.

    And BTW…surprise surprise…this terrorists don’t seem to subscribe to “Blue Lives Matter” do they?

  93. “Can he do that? I don’t understand who’s responsible for summoning the National Guard in DC.”

    Apparently only the Feds control the NG in DC. The Mayor doesn’t have the authority & DOD denied her first request along with Pelosi’s.,

  94. They broke a window to the Capital and crawled inside. How have these people not been arrested? If BLM attempted anything like this they would have all been shot on the spot. And the instigator is sitting in the White House watching this on TV, pleased as punch. And Ivanka says these people are “American Patriots”. My ass they are.

  95. And you know Trump is EATING this up. Ratings, baby! He is truly a despicable human being.

  96. And Ivanka says these people are “American Patriots”.

    @CityMom – that one gets me too. She should spend her life in Federal prison too. The whole corrupt, deranged family.

  97. “his terrorists don’t seem to subscribe to “Blue Lives Matter” do they?”

    No, that was just racist bullshit. They have injured 15 officers so far, one of whom is on his way to the hospital.

  98. I have no idea what hospital capacity is like in DC given Covid, but today could turn into an even bigger disaster if we start to see injuries

  99. RMS From what I understand, Trump is the one responsible for summoning the National Guard in DC

  100. MAGA likes to believe that they love America more, but this is proof that they hate our country. These domestic terrorists should be tried for treason.

  101. “You just know the Orange Shit is giggling and eating Big Macs.”

    And “fundraising”.

  102. I feel sick, like I did on 9/11. This is an attack on America. I can’t process what I’m seeing.

  103. “MAGA likes to believe that they love America more, but this is proof that they hate our country. These domestic terrorists should be tried for treason.”

    Yes. They threw an AMERICAN flag three stories off the US Capitol building and replaced it with a Trump flag. An American flag!! I never want to hear a God damn word from anyone about how MAGAs or Trump or even the “he’d be fun” Trump supporters are patriotic or “love America” ever again. And this is the END of Republicans as “Real Americans”. F that.

  104. I got a text (as I’m still an employee) from City and County of Denver that they’re dismissing all non-essential employees and going into “lockout”. No, I don’t know what “lockout” means in this context. They’re saying it’s to prepare for violence tonight downtown.

  105. “I feel sick, like I did on 9/11. This is an attack on America. I can’t process what I’m seeing.”

    You put in words what I’m feeling, too

  106. “I feel sick, like I did on 9/11. This is an attack on America. I can’t process what I’m seeing.”

    This is worse than 9/11. These are Americans doing this to our country, empowered by 74 million who voted for Trump.

  107. “This is an attack on America. I can’t process what I’m seeing.”

    But this is an attack on America by Americans. Which to me is way, way worse than an attack on America by foreigners.

  108. Trump in his Twitter message to the domestic terrorists said, “…we love you” when he was telling them to go home.

    Thank God that Biden won the election. Thank God for Stacey Abrams and the organizers in Georgia.

    Remind me again what Trump Derangement Syndrome is again? Is it what we are seeing in DC again?

  109. Hopefully the selfie-taking is just the cops trying to buy some time and keep things calm until someone who can do something about this shit storm comes along to help. (Who that “someone” is, I don’t know.)

  110. NoB, sorry, but I strongly disagree with your post about cops taking selfie’s with these guys. They and the ones doing the same thing with Proud boys in Kenosha this summer ought to be removed from their jobs immediately and charged with aiding a treasonous act in progress, misusing their office to do so. They are worse than the people they were supposed to be protecting us from.

  111. Stacy Abrams would disagree with you. I don’t think she sees his participation in voter suppression as patriotic.

    ?? What are you talking about. Voting access in Georgia has expanded under his 2 year term (absolutely thanks to Stacey Abrams but Raff gets credit too). He’s been in office since 2018. Are you thinking of our previous SoS, who is now the Governor?

  112. Yes. They threw an AMERICAN flag three stories off the US Capitol building and replaced it with a Trump flag. An American flag!!

    But Kapernick was the unpatriotic one.

  113. There are all kinds of Flag Code violations being perpetrated by these self-styled “patriots.”

  114. @NoB – I know it is the least of it, but watching them throw it off the US Capitol like garbage made me sick. The symbolism really hit me hard.

  115. The photos coming out of the Capitol are surreal. There they are, the treasonous insurgents, smiling and taking selfies of themselves in front of all the famous paintings and statutes so that they can brag on social media. Like they’re on some sort of field trip or something! Hopefully all those photos will make it easy for them to be identified and brought up on charges.

    And then there was the person waving a flag of Rocky Balboa?? WTF???

  116. Sounds like Scarlett is agreeing not to post loony tunes over here any more. The view of the wacko right has been interesting, but maybe now discussions can proceed more calmly. Interesting that her favorite sparring partner is also not interested of there isn’t a fight to be had.

    Right-wing pages we’ve looked at in the last couple hours are either trying to claim the attackers are leftists in disguise or trying to say that turning violent is “becoming antifa”. No, that’s actually been fa all along.

  117. Lark–

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/stacey-abrams-brad-raffensperger-colbert_n_5ff3d58bc5b6e7974fd5be82?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAF1dtGUyZ9CvRzSf23v-VjDokjLmEg8FX27It00OhdVJdtHFod6p2Q8qwNqf9mMCJvYMVCy7TomsG3cA5B3p7MJwDD7wIPzZepBfhaHqEHcO17TjTCsrXkkL14KGDPb8zabmXSae_Wz2BeP6XaG2yXglcDAOTZVNQcdXK4w7SiQd

    “Stacey Abrams is warning that while Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger stands up to President Donald Trump, he’s not exactly an ally of voting rights.

    “Lionizing Brad Raffensperger’s a bit wrong-headed,” the voting rights activist and former Georgia gubernatorial candidate told Stephen Colbert on Monday. “This man is not defending the right of voters. He’s defending an election that he ran.”

    She added that Raffensperger is working with his fellow Republicans in the state to limit access to the ballot box with new restrictions that could take effect in time for the next election.”

    If my understanding is wrong, please correct me. Is Raffensperger not part of the Republican suppression effort?

  118. “I love how once the conservatives are losing hard, they suddenly decide the politics page isn’t worth it anymore.”

    Years and years of discussions about every possible topic – none too small.

    Nothing at all, not a word, to say about an armed insurrection by white supremacist domestic terrorists in our Nation’s Capitol that sends Members of Congress into hiding while the military has to come in to try to take back order. Flamed by the POTUS. Not a word.

  119. Scarlett posted a comment about the Capitol situation on the main page, at 4:07.

  120. Trump’s speech was appalling. And I’m glad to see Sen. Romney acknowledge that the Republicans caused this insurrection. I can’t say I’m sorry that the Republican senators were locked in the capitol building and got to experience this first hand.

  121. Just finished for the day, and went to check my county’s vaccine rollout progress when I saw the news. Storming the Capitol building is totally violent and crazy.

  122. I love how once the conservatives are losing hard, they suddenly decide the politics page isn’t worth it anymore.

    Yup. Biden won. Trump has been proven to want to overturn our Democracy. As the Republicans said four years ago: Biden won. Deal with it.

  123. “I love how once the conservatives are losing hard, they suddenly decide the politics page isn’t worth it anymore.”

    What could they possibly say?

  124. Oh, and now I see a photo of someone waving a Rambo flag, like Rambo is an actual American hero. Which I guess shouldn’t surprise me, because this is a group of people who cannot (or at least does not want to) separate fantasy from reality.

  125. I wonder how Sylvester Stallone feels about all the flags with his likeness being waved today.

  126. I’m going to bed. Hope I can sleep. Head is full of reactions trickling in. Black people saying “if we did this, we’d be dead”. Yes. True. Black woman saying “not my fight—this is for you white people to figure out amongst yourselves”. I’m agog, don’t know how to answer. What people in the US swear an oath to protect our country against all enemies, foreign and domestic? Isn’t that everyone in the military? I’ve met some people who were in the military who think that is their job for the rest of their life. I tend to disagree, but then when this woman and Milo both say they dgaf about domestic enemies attacking the US. I can’t begin to understand that either. And conservatives like Scarlett and my sister (who voted against Hillary and for Biden) want to just shrug their shoulder and say “crazy” while sipping their drinks, bearing absolutely zero responsibility for what they have done. And now my neighbor who seems to think telling me how much she can’t stand trump and that the deutsche Bank gave him money is the answer to every lull in conversation wants me to explain to her what is going on. At least when I get together with my Bulgarian neighbor for coffee in a couple days, we will have something to talk about.

  127. Milo both say they dgaf about domestic enemies attacking the US

    That’s not what he said.

  128. For the record I am a conservative (a never Trumper, voted 3rd party in 2016 and 2020) and I am here.

  129. I’m seeing that it was Pence that authorized the National Guard, not Trump. Has anyone else seen that?

    I’m happy to see they’ll finish the certification tonight. Very curious to see if Cruz and others will continue to object to certification from the states Trump is complaining about.

  130. For the record I am a conservative (a never Trumper, voted 3rd party in 2016 and 2020) and I am here.

    Yeah, you’re not one of the ones who squealed with joy that the libtards got pwned in 2016. Milo was.

  131. Scarlett posted a comment about the Capitol situation on the main page, at 4:07.

    My opinion of that comment will go unstated. Much to everyone’s relief presumably.

  132. Becky, what he said was a claim not to know any of that was happening, then a very clear non-comment when filled in on the basics of it. How is that not ngaf, with different phrasing? Or are you disagreeing with the part where I said our govt was attacked by domestic enemies?

  133. BREAKING: Twitter locked President Trump out of his account for the first time late Wednesday, the most punitive step the company has taken so far against the president on a day of social unrest and violence in Washington. The 12-hour timeout also included the removal of three tweets and a warning that Trump could be subject to a permanent suspension if he continues tweeting baseless conspiracies about the election and inciting violence.

  134. On the National Guard.

    “ By law, local officials have no direct authority over the D.C. National Guard, which can be ordered in by Trump or the secretary of the army, McCarthy. Some 340 National Guardsmen were already in place in Washington at the time that the violent protests began, but they were not armed and stationed at points in downtown, away from the Capitol. A platoon of police officers from Montgomery County, Maryland, which borders D.C. to the north, also arrived at the complex late Wednesday afternoon. Videos from inside the Capitol also showed FBI swat teams in military fatigues at the building.” https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/01/06/national-guard-deployed-pro-trump-mob-us-capitol/?utm_source=PostUp&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=29018&utm_term=Editors%20Picks%20OC&?tpcc=29018

    Elsewhere the article says that DC only has around 1100 people in the NG.

  135. “And where’s TLC, she who voted hard, oooo baby, so hard, oh yeah, for Trump?”

    Oh yes. Because the real victim here is Michael Flynn. Who said Trump should use the military to impose martial law to rerun the election.

  136. Defense and administration officials said it was Vice President Mike Pence, not President Trump, who approved the order to deploy the D.C. National Guard. It was unclear why the president, who incited his supporters to storm the Capitol and who is still the commander in chief, did not give the order.

    Pentagon and Trump administration officials said the green light came from the vice president, while Acting Defense Secretary Christopher Miller said he and Gen. Mark Milley, the chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, spoke with Pence, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.), Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.), and House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (D-Md.), about what was happening at the Capitol. It does not appear either Miller or Milley spoke with the president.

    Does Pence have any such authority? Is this just 25th lite for the next two weeks?

  137. I heard that Ilmar Omar is drawing up articles of impeachment. I do not want her to do that. No impeachment at the last minute, no 25th amendment. Democrats won in Georgia because people are SICK OF CRAZY. Please, Democrats, be the party of NOT CRAZY right now. Do that, and you will win over tons of people. Go crazy, and you will lose in two years.

  138. Moos I, i Support Cori Bush’s resolution in that tweet Inposted earlier. I agree with you that impeachment doesn’t make sense now, but the 25th is the way to get rid of crazy.

    Rhett, that thing you posted is illogical. It says they don’t know why Trump did t call the NG but in the next breath says he’s the one who invited this attack. I assume that he, as commander in chief, could conceivably command them them let the rioters in? What happens when orders and rules of engagement disagree? Too bad there isn’t anybody around who knows anything about being a military officer.

  139. I clearly don’t know how to post tweets here. This is the one from Cori Bush I posted earlier. I think she’s right. Cant just sweep this under the rug.

    congresswoman Cori Bush
    @RepCori
    I believe the Republican members of Congress who have incited this domestic terror attack through their attempts to overturn the election must face consequences. They have broken their sacred Oath of Office.

    I will be introducing a resolution calling for their expulsion.

  140. Tweets from the Ga (not Ava) rep

    Rep. Lucy McBath
    @RepLucyMcBath
    ·
    7h
    Tonight, I am asking Vice President Pence to invoke the 25th Amendment and begin the process of removing President Trump from office.
    4.3K
    58.1K
    405.8K

    Rep. Lucy McBath
    @RepLucyMcBath
    ·
    7h
    The eyes of the world are upon us, and the President’s incitement of violence, his inducement of chaos, and his inability to faithfully “discharge the powers and duties of his office” make it clear.

    The President has refused to protect our democracy and must be removed.

  141. Ok. I’m off to write my letter. This is from CNN

    These 7 senators voted to sustain the objection against Pennsylvania’s electoral votes
    An objection to certify Pennsylvania’s electoral votes failed in the Senate tonight, with a 92-7 vote.

    Here are the seven Republican senators who voted to sustain the objection:

    Texas Sen. Ted Cruz
    Missouri Sen. Josh Hawley
    Wyoming Sen. Cynthia Lummis
    Kansas Sen. Roger Marshall
    Florida Sen. Rick Scott
    Alabama Sen. Tommy Tuberville
    Mississippi Sen. Cindy Hyde-Smith

  142. Showed my son the near-fight between the anesthesiologist and the NFL linebacker. He is disappointed no punches were thrown. I said “I have failed as a mother”. He replied “I have succeeded as a man”.

  143. Thanks to the Totebaggers who recommended Heather Cox Richardson. From her post yesterday:

    “White House Counsel Pat Cipollone urged people to stay away from Trump to limit their chances of being prosecuted for treason under the Sedition Act. By midnight, four staffers had resigned, as well as Deputy National Security Adviser Matthew Pottinger, with other, higher level officials also talking about leaving.”

    It’s like the Titanic, where a bunch of passengers blithely kept on partying even after the ship struck the iceberg, but suddenly they realize that the ship really is sinking and they’re running for the lifeboats.

  144. Becky, it’s a clear choice not to engage, after a logical consequence of their advocacy over the last five years, and their very active participation here. Very different from an occasional commenter choosing not to comment.

  145. Mulvaney has resigned. What is the point? We know they are rats.

    I am undecided on the 25th amendment. I think there is no low for a person with NPD when things start to collapse, so yesterday may not be it. For that reason, the 25th is probably a good route. Not sure how it plays out politically for the Democrats.

  146. All the rats scurrying for the exits never realized that they never had a chance. This has always been a cult of personality. Attaching themselves to Trump’s coattails wasn’t going to win them the presidency in 2024. Hitler’s toadies (yeah, I went there) weren’t going to be as successful as Hitler; it’s about the person, not the policies. That was clear when the Republicans decided their platform was whatever the Dear Leader wanted.

  147. I made a decision to delete all the political posts on the other thread back to yesterday. There are nice recipes there. And I will be aggressive in my deletions through the inauguration. Sue Me.

  148. The 25th has to come from the Cabinet, I believe, which would give political cover for both parties. I think impeachment is a really bad idea, though. It is a political process, not a legal one, and it has failed on all three tries in our history.
    One danger would be if the cabinet members all decide to resign rather than restrain him or do the 25th.

  149. Rocky, this is so instructive for the kids. Mine was telling me a few days ago that when he learned about Hitler’s cult of personality, he thought it was a strange, 1-off thing, but he is now realizing how very common it is. I do not generally support Angela Merkel’s party, but I do think she’s been a good leader. I can see, though, that it might be a good time to step down, before things get any more wrapped up in her.

  150. Mooshi, the individual cabinet members each thinking of their own well-being and skedaddling as fast as possible is likely. But I believe Pence can also invoke the 25th—that’s who the tweet I posted earlier and several other members of Congress are calling on to do it.

  151. I just read about the process required by the 25th, and sad to say, it would take too long.
    “The amendment, which was ratified in 1967 after concerns about the order of succession after John F. Kennedy’s assassination, would allow Pence and a majority of the Cabinet to declare that Trump is unfit for duty. They would then send a letter to Congress about their decision.

    At that moment, said Erwin Chemerinsky, dean of the University of California at Berkeley’s School of Law, Pence would assume the powers of the presidency. If Trump were in a coma or otherwise incapacitated, Pence would keep that power indefinitely.

    But the amendment also gives Trump the power to object by writing his own letter to Congress — an action that would immediately restore his powers. If that happened, though, Pence and the full Cabinet would have four days to overrule him. (There’s no agreement on who would be in power for those four days, The Washington Post’s Philip Bump reported. The amendment is unclear and would probably have to be tested in court.)

    If Pence and the Cabinet did overrule Trump, Congress would be called on to decide the dispute. Pence would remain in power in the meantime.

    That’s where the timing gets interesting. The amendment orders Congress to convene within 48 hours to decide on whether to boot the president — but then it gives lawmakers 21 days to make a decision.

    Affirming Pence’s move would require a two-thirds majority of both the House and Senate. That’s an unlikely result, considering a majority of House Republicans voted early Thursday to back Trump’s electoral objections.”

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/01/07/25th-amendment-pence-trump/

  152. @Meme – It’s the right thing to do. Good luck with your bridge game. (match? competition? I’m sorry I don’t know the right terminology!)

  153. It may have been written for slower times, but it is the process we have. We can’t change it.

  154. Given recent events, is this Milo and Scarlett’s way of saying we were right and they were wrong?

  155. There is the old line, “If you’re poor you’re crazy. If you’re rich you’re eccentric.”

    There is the many stories of Steve Jobs. From his theory that his diet made it so he didn’t need to bath or wear deodorant. Until the Apple board staged an intervention. To his theory that he could cure pancreatic cancer with herbs or whatever. IIRC the board staged an intervention then as well.

    And then we have Tony Hsieh with his 1000 candles and whippets and such.

    And then we have Donald:

    Narcissistic Personality Disorder – symptoms include:

    Have an exaggerated sense of self-importance
    Have a sense of entitlement and require constant, excessive admiration
    Expect to be recognized as superior even without achievements that warrant it
    Exaggerate achievements and talents
    Be preoccupied with fantasies about success, power, brilliance, beauty or the perfect mate
    Believe they are superior and can only associate with equally special people
    Monopolize conversations and belittle or look down on people they perceive as inferior
    Expect special favors and unquestioning compliance with their expectations
    Take advantage of others to get what they want
    Have an inability or unwillingness to recognize the needs and feelings of others
    Be envious of others and believe others envy them
    Behave in an arrogant or haughty manner, coming across as conceited, boastful and pretentious
    Insist on having the best of everything — for instance, the best car or office

    For at least some Trump supporters, was part of the issue a general unfamiliarity with high functioning mentally ill people? Most people are probably at least somewhat familiar with low functioning mentally ill people. But does being perceived as successful generally immunizes people against being judged “crazy” by at least some people.

  156. Hseih and Jobs were both legit smart and hard workers. Trump is neither. That undoes any comparison of their mania.

  157. S&M,

    My point was that Trump was perceived as being successful and that prevented at least some people from comprehending how deeply mentally ill he is.

  158. “I do agree though. If Pence is issuing military orders Trumps been de facto 25thd. Is it really worth the hassle?”

    My first thought was that there is only two more weeks, run out the clock. But then, i rethought. What happened yesterday was inexcusable. We have a system. We have an election, about half the country is disappointed with the result. If the president loses, he mourns in private and acts as a adult in public, and actively cooperates in the peaceful transition of power.

    I never expected Trump to take the high ground, but inciting an invasion in the U.S. capital is either treasonous or sign of mental instability.

    This cannot go unaddressed.

  159. 1 If they invoke the 25th amendment, my understanding is that he cannot run for office again. I think that would be good because I think he will run again unless his health takes a bad turn.
    2. If he cannot run for office again, I think he will slowly drift to some other “career” and that will leave the Republican Party more breathing space to figure out who they are and possibly move back toward the Eisenhower-era party many say they believe in.

  160. I feel like I am in a Twilight Zone episode. I read responses to news articles and posts coming through my FB feed – including the comments to the posts. I am struck by how it seems that we are not watching the exact same things going on.

    I think it is clear there is a lot of work to do to get our country back to a place where we may not agree on the details, but we are at least all heading the same direction.

  161. 1 If they invoke the 25th amendment, my understanding is that he cannot run for office again.

    You’re confusing the 25th with Article I, Section 3, Clauses 6 and 7 which states:

    Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States;

    Not extend further meaning they could convict him and remove him but leave the possibility of future Federal office including running again for POTUS. Or the punishment could include a permanent ban on holding Federal office.

  162. Of course he could run for president again if they invoke the 25th. That amendment was designed to handle temporary incapacity. It was used when George W Bush had to go under anesthesia for a colonoscopy.

  163. The way we get our country back is by not focusing for the next 2 years on going after Trump. That simply invalidates all the people who voted for him. We can’t get the country back together if everyone is spending all their times trying to make the other side mad.

  164. I worry that in 6 months, there will be some kind of march on Washington. A march filled with shiny young people who are full of idealism and convinced that the government does not represent them. And they should march, because we believe in freedom of assembly. They will be angry and unarmed. They will likely have a diversity of skin colors. They will pee on the Capitol. Climb the walls. Try to break inside. And will be massacred – because what happened yesterday won’t be allowed to happen again.

  165. I am struck by how it seems that we are not watching the exact same things going on.

    I think we are. A significant number of republicans and former Trump supporters are really shocked and disgusted. The most interesting group though is the ones that will cling to any possible theory that keeps their self concept intact. One of them being that it was all Antifa.

    There was a really good article that I should have bookmarked. Long story short people want to believe that they are smart, good judges of character, most often correct, etc. When confronted with a fact that undermines that belief, they are frantic to accept any theory that will return them to their previous state of equilibrium.

  166. Ada – I have two young college students an they are appalled at what happened yesterday. They are excited about people like Ossoff – younger (compared to Mitch, etc) – who they feel can represent them. Their cohort turned out in large numbers. I think if the parties tap into this demographic – tackling issues they care about, putting forth candidates they think will represent them – at the federal, state, and local level – this cohort will work within to change the system. Those who are educated KNOW how to work the systems they have grown up in and will transfer this knowledge.

  167. I’m very torn. Because I agree with Cass – this cannot go unaddressed. That goes for the President and his horrible family – for the next two weeks or in the future, and it goes for the armed insurgents who ransacked the US Capitol.

    But then I also don’t want to spend the next 2 years talking about Trump or his followers. I want him to face consequences quickly and then go away. (wishful thinking I know) I want the FBI and other appropriate agencies to focus on taking down violent domestic terrorist groups (which they seem to have ignored based on what we’ve heard from ex-administration officials), but I don’t want to talk about Trump himself at all. I don’t want to give light to people like Sen Hawley or Sen Cruz. I don’t think that gets us, as a country, to a better place.

    I’d like to focus on taking advantage of having a slim majority to actually pass some moderate legislation and reforms, and yes – I still want some semblance of compromise with reasonable people like Romney. Like AM said – there is a lot of work to do to get people out of the echo chambers.

  168. I am old, but not old enough to remember the JFK, Robert Kennedy and MLK assignations. Those seem to have rocked our country and somehow we got through. Is there any commonality between the late 60s and yesterday?

  169. Is there any commonality between the late 60s and yesterday?

    That’s a really interesting question. My faint recollection, bolstered by my superficial reading of history, is that those assassinations were pretty easy for the media and a lot of the public to brush off as “the work of a madman”. The conspiracy theorists went straight to secret cabals of various kinds; the assassinations were sponsored either by the Sekrit U.S. Gummint or the Sekrit Russian Gummint.

  170. On not watching the same movie—Glen Beck told his followers to be MLK. What 60s feel did he see? I mean I know MLK gets whitewashed, but yikes!

  171. I was reflecting on the time in 1967 when armed Black Panthers entered the California state capitol. At the time, it wasn’t illegal to carry weapons. Super short version from Wikipedia:

    Awareness of the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense grew rapidly after their May 2, 1967 protest at the California State Assembly. On May 2, 1967, the California State Assembly Committee on Criminal Procedure was scheduled to convene to discuss what was known as the “Mulford Act”, which would make the public carrying of loaded firearms illegal. Newton, with Minister of Information Eldridge Cleaver, put together a plan to send a group of 26 armed Panthers led by Seale from Oakland to Sacramento to protest the bill. The group entered the assembly carrying their weapons, an incident which was widely publicized, and which prompted police to arrest Seale and five others. The group pleaded guilty to misdemeanor charges of disrupting a legislative session.[64]

    In May 1967, the Panthers invaded the State Assembly Chamber in Sacramento, guns in hand, in what appears to have been a publicity stunt. Still, they scared a lot of important people that day. At the time, the Panthers had almost no following. Now, (a year later) however, their leaders speak on invitation almost anywhere radicals gather, and many whites wear “Honkeys for Huey” buttons, supporting the fight to free Newton, who has been in jail since last Oct. 28 (1967) on the charge that he killed a policeman …[65]

    That resulted in open carry being criminalized in California. There were significant changes, most of them detrimental to the Black residents of California, as the backlash hit hard. Anyway, I don’t know what the outcome will be to yesterday’s chaos, other than I hope some of the Trump-supporting Capitol Police get their asses handed to them.

  172. Whatever we do about prosecuting Trump st al will be the rules of the game going forward. If we allow these grifters wo move out of the White House and continue profiting on everything they’ve set up over the last few years, we open ourselves up to more qvc on the White House website, more use of private properties for re-I Hirse able government business, more nepotism, more going beyond legal tax breaks to corruption. If we don’t want those things to happen again, we have to do something about the fact that they have happened.

  173. @AustinMom- I agree that there is a lot of hope out there, a lot of organized people committed to process. I think a small segment of the population will see this as an achievable end/a blueprint to follow – put your feet up on the desk of the lawmaker you don’t agree with, tear down a cabinet of books that you don’t like, destroy some antique furniture, smear some body fluids around a sacred space. Those people will be in front at the next protest.

  174. My faint recollection, bolstered by my superficial reading of history, is that those assassinations were pretty easy for the media and a lot of the public to brush off as “the work of a madman”.

    But what about the civil rights movement, Vietnam, women’s lib (or was that more the 70s?) Kent State, Watts, Heh Heh LBJ how many boys did you kill today, etc.

  175. What about them, Rhett? Not being flippant — are you asking if the stress on the nation was just as bad as now? I would say probably yes. The division over the Vietnam War was really dramatic and broke up families just as Trump has broken up families.

  176. Not being flippant — are you asking if the stress on the nation was just as bad as now? I would say probably yes.

    Yes, that’s what I was curious about. And also the Cuban Missile Crisis, the Prague Spring, the Berlin Wall from what I’ve read people had a very real fear at the height of these crises that they would be incinerated. Would you say people had a stronger sense that they personally could end up dead.

  177. I would add that during the Cuban Missile Crisis, a global war that killed 70 million and ended with a nuclear strike happened only 16 years before. I assume it was much easier to imagine WWIII with WWII fresh in everyone’s mind.

    To put it in perspective if the Cuban Missile Crisis was today WWII would have ended in 2004.

  178. I have a vague memory of the RFK assassination because the footage was on TV and I was really scared by it. I was in first grade. There was obviously a lot of anger – think of all the riots during that period. The Chicago riot of 68 had a lot in common with what we saw yesterday. But the media didn’t broadcast the stuff breathlessly 24/7 and many people were quite unaware of what was happening. My parents were on the rather liberal to leftist side of politics and hung out with many people who were demonstrating and even going to jail for draft resistance, but I don’t recall them or their friends ever sounding as angry as my middle aged mom friends who are into activism these days. (and you may ask why my parents weren’t demonstrating – easy – my father had a security clearance).
    I think there was some level of anger simmering though, and it played out in the endless bombings, bomb threats, hijackings, kidnappings, and general weird paranoia of the early 70’s, a period that I was old enough to sort of remember. I lived in Germany during the Baader-Meinhof period, as well as the Munich Olympics. That was a strange time.
    The Vietnam War ending really helped calm things down, but I personally think the paroxysm of Watergate, and the fact that it ended without a Constitutional crisis and without an impeachment, also helped. And yes, Ford’s pardon helped smooth things over, even though it PO’ed my parents a lot. And then we got into the Iran crisis which was more of a common enemy type thing, and then the sunny optimism of the Reagan era.

  179. Has anyone heard a peep from Trump since he said he would do an orderly transition, late last night? I have heard a rumor that he was told to say that in order to avoid the 25th. Is it possible that Pence is really acting as President right now?

  180. He’s be banned from social media and otherwise doesn’t really do anything, so no. I think his degenerate kids have also been quiet.

    Elaine Chao is quitting. These people.

  181. I think there was plenty of rage. Might not have been your family and their friends, but plenty of “regular” people were in a froth. It was just quieter because there was no social media.

  182. RMS, I think that social media, as well as the polarized TV news outlets, contribute to the anger level. There just wasn’t the outlet back then for non-mainstream viewpoints. In the later 70’s, there were ‘zines, but honestly, how many people ever even saw those? The only conservative radio show I remember was Paul Harvey, who was like Mr Calm compared to Rush. I think the changes in the FCC laws really made a difference. A lot of the anger was already starting to build in the 90’s with the rise of polarized radio and TV.

  183. “Is it possible that Pence is really acting as President right now?”

    Sure. Have you seen the official schedule for Trump for the last few days??? Before all this? “The President will have many calls and many meetings.” I wouldn’t be surprised if the difference is that everyone has just stopped pretending that Trump is in charge.

    I have asked my parents and IL’s about the comparison to the late 60’s/early 70’s many times. They’ve all said that it was similar in the upheaval, but FIL and Dad were both very heavily focused on Vietnam, being of draft age. My dad says his whole life trajectory and major life choices at that time were completely shaped by wanting to stay the hell out of Vietnam. The other things were scary, but further away — even Kent State which they all have mentioned as being a big deal to them since they were all in college too at the time. All four of them say they are more concerned now…but 4 college kids vs. 4 retired people with access to 24/7 news and social media??? They are just as influenced by that as anyone else.

    I was speculating that the McConnell doesn’t really want to be just minority leader, so he might retire & insert his wife into his term. But I know nothing about the laws of replacing Senators in Kentucky so that could be pure imagination on my part. Maybe he’s banking on 2022.

  184. @MM – Yeah, I am curious. Probably status quo, but I was just curious if he will say “enough’s enough – I’ll retire and make more $$ lobbying with the fundraising BS”.

  185. So I’m back over here because I cannot stop thinking about yesterday. Re: the earlier events: from the ones I recall (Watergate forward), I can’t think of any with the same feeling of the country pulled apart from within. The ’80s were horrible in terms of stress, with Reagan and mutually assured destruction and all that. But the threat was always from outside, which does inspire sort of a “we’re all in this together” response — i.e., the nation may end because it gets bombed out of existence, but not because the foundation on which it stands crumbled. (I know this was not true late-’60s through Watergate, but my awareness sort of started when it was undisputed that Nixon had been involved and agreed to resign). My recollection of Watergate was that it left people with a distrust of government, perhaps more than had been there before, but I didn’t have the same feeling of a bunch of Nixon supporters might invade the Capitol with guns, you know?

    I hate this because every new degradation that we put up with lowers the bar for the next person. And refusing to cede power after you’ve lost is THE core element of our success as a democracy. At some point, when you keep eroding the standards of acceptable (as in, not-executed-for-treason) behavior, you erode the foundation on which our whole house rests. Yes, yesterday was so inept it was clearly not an intentional effort to take over the government. But if the people who did this — and encouraged this — aren’t punished with that “at least 10 yrs in jail” Trump threatened for the Portland protestors, then why wouldn’t the next pissed-off group get better organized and take it even further?

    We are a nation of laws, not of men. If that goes, so do we.

  186. All four of them say they are more concerned now…but 4 college kids vs. 4 retired people with access to 24/7 news and social media??? They are just as influenced by that as anyone else.

    Yes, this. The retirees in my orbit spend way too much time forwarding total nonsense and believing it’s true. That and access to 24/7 news. I have told the seniors in my family not to send me any forwards. So much better. No arguments.

  187. Protesters who trespass and/or vandalize should be subject to criminal prosecution including jail terms (probably not prison for most of them, since I don’t think either the Capitol or the Portland protesters should serve more than a year in most cases) as well as civil prosecution for restitution.

    The right to protest depends on exercising it lawfully and what happened in the Capitol yesterday is wrong on many levels.

  188. @LfB – I totally agree. Trump and his enablers need to be held accountable – by the law, by their respective parties and organizations, and by us. And the mob that actually broke into the Capitol, vandalized the building, potentially stole government property, and sent Members of Congress fleeing should be punished to the full extent of the law – the 10 years in Federal prison that Trump himself suggested is fine with me.

    I just don’t want to spend the next 2 years talking about Trump. Make it fast – make him and other accountable. But let’s not squander this opportunity either. I was so hopeful yesterday morning finding out that total gridlock was likely going to be over for 2 years. (Is it AOC or Bernie’s dream? No – and that’s fine with me. But I can’t take more McConnell.)

  189. The retirees in my orbit spend way too much time forwarding total nonsense and believing it’s true.

    Why do you think they do that?

    I’ve been noticing people I know liking and sharing things like this:

    It’s supposedly the chip diagram for the 5G chip they inserted into the COVID vaccine.

    In actuality, it’s the wiring diagram for a guitar peddle. Someone obviously put this together as a prank. If you look closely it says BASS, TREBBLE, VOLUME. But some people seem to not be aware that so many of these things are fake and made up to make them look like fools in many cases. Or in other cases these memes are put together by people with malicious intent.

    What do you think the issue is?

  190. I’m usually not one for the “it’s the worst time in our Nation’s history” rhetoric – especially given we had an actual Civil War that lasted 4 years among other things. But this really does seem to be a time that my kid’s grandkids will be asking him about in 60 years. Between the pandemic and now this disaster of a transition of power….it really is something.

  191. I dont want to beat this drum again, but I am just old enough for nuclear air raid drills and yearly showings of The Twisted Cross documentary as a small child, cuban missile crisis, civil rights deaths, JFK assassination to be events as a news focussed tween, MLK death and local burning streets when I was in high school, RFK and Chicago starting college, plus life before women had full access to the public world, all the bitter divisions of Vietnam, Weatherman bombings more riots, Kent state, watergate, massive urban decay, the southern strategy and busing controversy, the rise of OPEC, Iran hostages as a young adult. It was bad. Very bad. Just as bad as now, but different. The country was fractured. However, as much as I was opposed to Reagan, the ensuing years of US prosperity and the expanding economic pie and air conditioning opening up vast areas of the country to residential comfort made all that seem to fade away. Until globalization and tech revolution meant we had to pay the piper for deregulation, union busting, and losers in the educated class meritocracy. Then it was revealed that it was just papered over. We are fortunate that the demagogue who arosecwas so old and flawed.

  192. Rhett – they don’t realize how easy it is to fake this stuff. If it’s a video narrated by a guy in a white coat who claims he is a doctor, his medical advice must be true.

    I want to say, that in spite of all that has gone on, Americans don’t realize how much for granted they take the Freedom of Speech. I have realized that people in some countries will post and forward jokes/memes/criticism about America but will not do anything remotely similar with regard to their own countries. They know if it offends the administration they can be put in jail indefinitely.

  193. Are those the same polls that said there would be a Democratic landslide? Polls mean nothing.

    “the ensuing years of US prosperity and the expanding economic pie and air conditioning opening up vast areas of the country to residential comfort made all that seem to fade away.”

    Bread and circuses. But as you go on to note, we’re low on bread and a little too heavy on circuses these days.

  194. “We are fortunate that the demagogue who arosecwas so old and flawed.”

    Yes – we are very lucky that Trump was actually incompetent.

  195. But if the people who did this — and encouraged this — aren’t punished with that “at least 10 yrs in jail” Trump threatened for the Portland protestors, then why wouldn’t the next pissed-off group get better organized and take it even further?

    That’ll do for starters, but we need to take into account how much more serious yesterday was. They were armed. It was the seat of government. They fought through security guards. They intended to disrupt the business of government.

  196. The polls in GA were pretty much right on.

    And the 2018 polls were accurate as well. It’s Trump personally and his personality and many many flaws that seem to drive the reluctance to admit support publically.

  197. My dad says his whole life trajectory and major life choices at that time were completely shaped by wanting to stay the hell out of Vietnam.
    Ivy, my dad has said this exact thing so many times.

    Yes – we are very lucky that Trump was actually incompetent.
    While watching the insurgents take selfies and videos of themselves, DH said, “Thank God they are the dumbest people ever.” I couldn’t decide whether to laugh or cry.

  198. “Glen Beck told his followers to be MLK.”

    In what way? To practice nonviolent civil disobedience?

  199. “One danger would be if the cabinet members all decide to resign rather than restrain him or do the 25th.”

    I think if the political appointees all left, the links between Trump and the civil service employees would be largely severed, minimizing the damage he could do.

    If key civil service employees took some vacation days next week, that would further limit it.

  200. “are you asking if the stress on the nation was just as bad as now? I would say probably yes. The division over the Vietnam War was really dramatic and broke up families just as Trump has broken up families.”

    And there was the cold war on top of that. Of course, our involvement in Vietnam was directly related to the cold war as well.

    And don’t forget the skyjacking epidemic.

  201. While watching the insurgents take selfies and videos of themselves, DH said, “Thank God they are the dumbest people ever.”

    They are even dumber than he probably realized:

    “Navistar, a direct marketing company in Maryland, announced that an employee had been terminated after he was photographed wearing his company ID badge inside the breached Capitol building.”

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/07/us/capitol-riots-people-fired-jobs-trnd/index.html

    So if these people are being identified, why aren’t they being arrested? There is photographic evidence of them committing felonies.

  202. Denver, after Charleston, weren’t many of the participants identified and fired? I agree with you that these people should all be charged with multiple counts of felonies they were recorded committing.

  203. DeVos was one of the worst people in the Trump orbit. She spent the last 4 years pushing the interests of predatory for-profit colleges over the interests of students, and is the most sued Secretary of Education in the department’s history (455 lawsuits in 4 years), mostly over her delays and stonewalling on loan relief for students who were defrauded by for-profit schools, steering money intended for public schools to private schools, and civil rights. She knew nothing about public education, which is the main focus of the Dept of Education, and never developed any particular interest in public school education issues. She provided little guidance for schools with respect to COVID. She should have resigned due to her own incompetence.

  204. You gotta love this – this guy who was filmed inside the Capitol in a weird costume consisting of furs, a bullet proof vest, and a weird little thingie on his head has been identified. He is the son of a Brooklyn Supreme Court judge who is also a prominent figure in the NJ Orthodox Jewish community.
    The costume is really odd. What is with these people?
    https://nypost.com/2021/01/07/nyc-man-who-breached-us-capitol-is-son-of-prominent-brooklyn-judge/

  205. “But his sibling, Nachman Mostofsky, told the outlet, “My brother did nothing illegal … He definitely was not part of the riot.”

    His brother was photographed being inside the Capitol illegally. These people really are morons.

  206. You don’t say.

    “But now there’s a sense among a growing number of GOP lawmakers that Trump may have inflicted long-term damage on their party, an anxiety heightened by the debacle of a pro-Trump mob storming and occupying the U.S. Capitol building Wednesday as Congress was meeting to finalize Biden’s election as the nation’s 46th president.”

    https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/533280-republican-senators-now-regret-not-doing-more-to-contain-trump

  207. S&M, no this is a different guy. Chewie didn’t have a bullet proof vest and he wore horns. There were a number of people in these bizarre animal costumes. It must have some meaning to Trump folks

  208. I’ve seen comments that the rioters urinated and defecated in various rooms within the capital, but it has come from sites like Ny Daily News and blogs. Is there any truth to that? It doesn’t matter much, but I keep seeing outrage at the hypocrisy of people being outraged because it’s not like they burned or looted in this “peaceful” gathering of Patriots.

  209. “after Charleston, weren’t many of the participants identified and fired?”

    I know of one person from my company who was terminated after being photographed in Charleston wearing white supremacist symbols. I don’t know if they had evidence of him doing anything technically illegal, but the media photos spotted by coworkers led HR to a treasure trove of social media posts. I think the attendance at a white supremacist rally was probably enough, but there was plenty for Legal to agree to his immediate termination.

  210. “I’ve seen comments that the rioters urinated and defecated in various rooms within the capital, but it has come from sites like Ny Daily News and blogs. Is there any truth to that? ”

    From what I have heard from my family member who was there – yes. Also at least some of the white supremacists – even without guns – were hitting them with pipes/fire extinguishers/items from the Capitol, using their “flag poles” as weapons (some of them were actual weapons disguised as flagpoles), letting off smoke bombs, and spraying the officers with mace and other irritants. While there are videos of them yukking it up or walking slowly through the rope lines in the Rotunda, there are also some videos where you can see there are groups that were extremely aggressive once they got inside, and obviously – not everything is on the social media videos. The officer who died was hit with a fire extinguisher.

  211. I think the attendance at a white supremacist rally was probably enough, but there was plenty for Legal to agree to his immediate termination.

    Legal would only be concerned with him being a member of a protected class. Otherwise you don’t need a reason to fire someone. You can fire them for any reason or no reason at all. That’s at will employment.

  212. Rhett – You have no idea what our Legal department would be interested in or not. I am well aware of the concept of At Will Employment, but that doesn’t mean that every company doesn’t handle the risks differently. Also, you don’t know what state this was in or what the local laws might be.

  213. Sorry Anon. I just have a pet peeve with people less informed than you who think this is France and they have all kinds of job protections that don’t actually exist in America.

  214. Ivy, thanks. From the social media of some people I know, you’d think it had just been a picnic on a lovely spring day.

  215. So the WSJ editorial board, the folks who pioneered the derisive term “Orange man bad” has now admitted the orange man really is bad and they are demanding his removal.

    I believe I speak for many when I say:

  216. Yes of course we knew that. I’m glad to see them figuring it out. Really don’t see the point of talking about politics if we aren’t trying to do anything about it, am really not into taunting.

  217. @Becky – I believe the reports of some of the officers taking selfies & backing off are true too, FWIW. And the police response was mixed and flawed as is becoming apparent with the resignations of leadership, etc. But at least some of the white supremacists were very aggressive – that is a fact.

  218. Rhett: yeah, I am fascinated by all the rats leaving the sinking ship. Harking back to our prior discussion, note the carefulness of this filing: it doesn’t actually *say* what happened to trigger those concerns, it just says that something happened, and he wants to withdraw. That’s the fine line I was talking about that we have to walk.

  219. Rhett: because he has not admitted it is ongoing. Lawyer details: 1.16(b) is the “may” withdraw, not the “must” withdraw. The “may” withdraw is the past tense: it’s what happens when you discover the client has used your services improperly in the past. The “must” withdraw is in 1.16(a) and applies to ongoing work that will violate the law.

    The “why shouldn’t he be required to report” is because it would violate the 5th Amendment right to remain silent. If you are a defendant, you are entitled to a fair defense, even if you are guilty. And to get that fair defense, you must be able to tell your lawyer everything, freely. So if you can’t say you’re guilty without your lawyer having to report that, then you have to choose between a fair defense and your 5th Amendment right not to incriminate yourself.

    Now, from the lawyer’s standpoint, the lawyer’s obligation is not to present anything false to the court. So if the client admits he did it, the lawyer cannot allow testimony claiming innocence — and that extends to allowing his own client to take the stand to testify that he is innocent. But the lawyer can still require the prosecution to prove its case, even if he knows the client is guilty.

  220. And to get that fair defense, you must be able to tell your lawyer everything, freely.

    But you can’t. You just said you can’t tell him you’re guilty because you wouldn’t be allowed to testify to your innocence.

  221. Rhett: because he has not admitted it is ongoing.

    Is he required to report it if it’s ongoing? If not why not?

  222. The argument is also a little disingenuous in light of the fact that, “In that world, 97 percent of federal cases and 94 percent of state cases end in plea bargains, with defendants pleading guilty in exchange for a lesser sentence.”

    That’s something to think about in light of Scarlett’s histrionics about Japan’s 99% rate. It would seem that in practice, if a client admits guilt, the lawyer will almost always suggest a plea.

  223. For years, the nation’s highest court has devoted the majority of its criminal justice efforts to ensuring that defendants get a fair day in court and a fair sentence once a trial is concluded. But in two decisions on Wednesday, the Supreme Court tacitly acknowledged that it has been enforcing an image of the system that is very different from the real, workaday world inhabited by prosecutors and defense lawyers across the country.

    In that world, 97 percent of federal cases and 94 percent of state cases end in plea bargains, with defendants pleading guilty in exchange for a lesser sentence. Courtroom trials, the stuff of television dramas, almost never take place.

  224. Rhett: “fair defense” doesn’t mean “whatever the client wants.” It means putting the prosecution to its burden of proof. It means fair to everyone involved — lawyers shouldn’t be allowed to suborn perjury, courts should not be subjected to false testimony. Allowing defendants to tell their lawyers everything minimizes those sorts of things happening — not all of it, of course, there are some unethical lawyers, and there are clients who are smart enough not to tell their lawyers they’re guilty. But it’s more likely than the alternative.

    And we’re talking about whether he can continue to represent the guy here, not whether he must or even can report — again, crime/fraud mandatory reporting is limited to threats of pretty imminent physical harm.

  225. How many of those plea bargains are for false charges? I know that for Black men who were stopped driving (or walking) while black are often charged with things they didn’t do, taken I to custody, and offered a plea bargain to be able to go home. Civil rights info for people likely to be subject to this treatment explains that if they take the plea bargain, they are confessing to the crime they did not commit. How many of the plea bargains for white collar crime are by people who are innocent?

  226. How many of the plea bargains for white collar crime are by people who are innocent?

    I don’t know how you would be able to figure that out. Basically anybody who can afford a decent private lawyer need not plea bargain. But if you have a public defender, you’re going to be pushed hard to plea bargain. My white nephew’s public defender was leaning on him to plead guilty, but when DH and I paid for a private lawyer, he successfully argued that the search of the car had been unjustified and the evidence was thrown out. And without the evidence, the case was dismissed.

    (Of course the brat WAS totally guilty, but that’s not the point.)

  227. Basically anybody who can afford a decent private lawyer need not plea bargain.

    As I understand it the prosecution is required to provide the defense with all the evidence that will be presented at trial. An honest lawyer is going to tell his client, “I’ve reviewed the evidence and the prosecution has met the burden of proof. A plea is your only option.”

  228. Rocky, wow. I see your point about those stats not exactly being out there. That’s basically the reason why, instead of numbers, I showed the reasoning that tells me some of these guys are innocent. Beyond that, there is also the notion that euqal under the law means that if your nephew gets a paid lawyer who can use that argument to get him off scot-free, then a defendant with no money should be able to do the same. But I’m going to guess you already realize that.

  229. But I’m going to guess you already realize that.

    Righty-oh.

    The problem is that the public defenders are so buried under hundreds of cases that they don’t have time to do any prep for any of them. People dump on public defenders but a lot of them are genuinely trying to do their jobs. They just don’t have the resources, including time.

  230. Not the public defenders fault at all—they need more colleagues, fewer cases. Stop letting police depts buy military equipment and use the money to give people a fair trial

  231. Rocky, if you knew the nephew was guilty, why did you get him off the hook? There are plenty of people who do that—why?

  232. His mother called and asked DH for money for a lawyer. The fact is that the cop did not have probable cause for a search of the car. It’s bad for guilty people to go free, but it’s bad for cops to do illegal searches and seizures. Next time make sure you have probable cause, officer.

  233. What an ugly week! I’m consistent in my “rioting is bad” stance, and fully support the hammer being dropped on all those involved. If you storm a federal building (especially the capital), you should expect to get shot. I do have to roll my eyes a little at pearl clutching from all the people (not necessarily here) who either cheered on or rationalized the BLM riots.

    In other news where TLC is a hypocrite, I relented to the (fairly intense) social pressure, and took the first dose of Covid vaccine earlier this week when offered by my employer.

  234. I do have to roll my eyes a little at pearl clutching from all the people (not necessarily here) who either cheered on or rationalized the BLM riots.

    I saw a quote from someone on twitter saying something like, “It’s amazing how many who were saying burn the MF down over the summer are saying the cops should have busted their heads open with truncheons. And vice versa.”

    Are you surprised that Trump is this bad of a person?

  235. any issues?

    My mom and SIL got it. My mom had some arm soreness and that’s it. My SIL had a couple of hot flashes.

  236. Becky, I got the Pfizer. So far just a sore arm on par with a tetanus shot. Several people have reported delayed onset redness and swelling that pops up a few days after the shot. I’m aware of one person who had some sort of reaction and had to go to the ED.

  237. TLC, do you (and WCE) honestly not see any difference between this and the BLM protests last summer? I can’t believe that.

    I wish our cops knew how to use force non-violently. This summer, and for centuries with Black men and women, they were busting heads. Not the way to do it. In the Capital, they acted like turnstiles, letting the rioters go right on through. Completely ineffectual. They need to stop hiring Israeli trainers and start paying attention to Scottish, German, or other police forces that know how to and routinely do control things without using excessive force.

    One example is kettling. In the US, cops squeeze protesters tighter and tighter, often mocking them or assaulting those closest to them. It is a tactic used to build pressure, to try to force someone to throw a rock or do something else to give the cops an excuse to go wild. Here, we see it all the time as a non-violent tactic. They bring in 2000+ cops to demonstration, literally line the area, forming a kettle, I guess, but then they do not apply pressure. They hang back, let people do whatever drumming and chanting and speech-making and dancing and whatever else they want to do. It’s a pain if you need to get to a shop on the other side of the street, because they won’t let you through, but it is effective at controlling the protest while allowing people to exercise their free speech. Police here often move in vans of 6 and walk down the street in groups. It is the opposite of intimidating. None of them react like the hair-trigger jerk you sometimes see in the US. I suppose that’s because they all know the others have their back. Even when they arrest someone, it isn’t the taut 1:- confrontation you see in the states. One person will do the talking while a couple others unobtrusively stand back and block the exit. If the suspect moves, they will too, but still keeping their distance. If things get confrontational, that officer switches places with one of the others who isn’t so heated up. We haven’t seen anyone make a run for it, Walter Scott style, but I don’t think they could get through. We have both had the experience of seeing someone walking with a few cops, then realizing as we pass that it wasn’t just a casual conversation-the person is handcuffed and besides the officers on either side, there are more following along. I’m sure it isn’t comfortable to be in that guys position, but it also isn’t lethal, and we simply have not seen police here with that looking-for-a-fight attitude.

  238. TLC, do you (and WCE) honestly not see any difference between this and the BLM protests last summer?

    It’s the same thing more or less in terms of the people involved. Many have legitimate grievances but they expressed them in destructive and likely self defeating ways. The principle difference is that the storming of the Capitol was the direct result of a sitting US President inciting a riot.

  239. Rhett, I think it was a bad political move for Trump to have called his supporters in. Many of them were hyped up for some kind of big reveal – incontrovertible evidence of fraud – and he didn’t produce anything new. I’m not surprised that after the let down, there were a few that caused trouble. But, the incident does move him into the “evil” category for me.

  240. Rhett, I think it was a bad political move for Trump to have called his supporters in.

    Interesting phrasing. Not a bad move because people died as a result. But bad politically.

  241. TLC,

    You had placed a lot of faith in what Sydney Powell and Linn Wood had said about various things. When Wood says thing like there is video of John Roberts raping and murdering a child, does that make you think they might have been lying before as well?

  242. Rule under law means that protesters should be prosecuted when they violate laws, whether they trespassed at a federal building in Capitol Hill in Seattle, Washington, or whether they trespassed at a federal building on Capitol Hill in Washington DC. The morality of a protest has no legal relevance. Gun violations in a federal building are additional charges.

  243. Who organized the protest? If Trump spoke, is it a PAC or something he’s affiliated with? Does the organizer have any liability?

    And yeah – the zip ties people are pretty horrifying, and this is being ignored by my social media acquaintances who frame it as the poor frustrated people being forced into a happy spring day at the capitol because Biden stole the election. The zip ties people, not coincidentally, completely masked their faces and will be much harder to identify.

  244. “As I understand it the prosecution is required to provide the defense with all the evidence that will be presented at trial. An honest lawyer is going to tell his client, ‘I’ve reviewed the evidence and the prosecution has met the burden of proof. A plea is your only option.’”

    Rhett: that was the point of the S.Ct. decisions discussed in that article: that people have the right to counsel before entering a plea bargain, and so since the prosecutors aren’t required to provide that information until shortly before trial (and most defendants wouldn’t on their own know to ask for the evidence sooner), something has to change.

    TLC: “Pearl-clutching”? Really? What I saw was a group of armed protestors who broke into the US Capitol, while Congress was in session, with the specific goal of showing their “strength” to persuade the Senators and Representatives to reject the electoral vote results. That is far more politically significant than throwing rocks at a federal building, or taking over a police precinct. So far, four people have died, and we’re frankly lucky it wasn’t more; all it would have taken was a few more competent and dedicated protestors to bust their way into the chambers.

    But what I really cannot get past is the distinct differences between this incident and the BLM protests. This summer, an entire phalanx of cops, guardsmen, and military from any number of organizations was armed and ready, and used their power to force peaceful protestors out of the way for a photo op. None of those people were even on alert. In Portland, the US was hauling people off the streets in full combat gear, ferrying them away in vans, and holding/interrogating them at the police station — including people who were literally walking down the street nowhere near the protests. Here, some of the cops on guard were welcoming the protestors and taking selfies, instead of doing their job, and almost every single protestor walked safely out of the capitol building and will likely be arrested only if they were stupid enough to brag about it on social media. Why? Because angry white men don’t pose the same threat angry black men do?

    The “blue lives matter” protestors killed a cop in the carnage and injured others. The “America First”ers took down the American flag and put up a Trump flag — which, as someone who lived through the Iranian revolution, triggered serious flashbacks (although I guess we should be happy they didn’t actually burn the American flag). And our upstanding fine American citizens erected a noose. Nope, no racists here.

    I also don’t hold with riots. I don’t like either the Proud Boys OR antifa, and I absolutely do not support the efforts to take over police precincts. I have no complaints at all about the many protestors who came down to voice their opinion and didn’t participate in breaking into the Capitol. But I watched the Portland “riots,” and what I saw was a lot of people standing outside the federal building yelling at a lot of cops and periodically throwing a rock or a water bottle. No one tried to break into the building, and the cops were ready to take them out if they did. I saw infinitely more cops taking down protestors in Portland than I did the other day — and I mean that literally, because the other day, I saw not one single cop take down one single protestor who was storming the capitol.

    And, yeah, some of my reaction is based on my view of the worthiness of the cause. This summer, the protests were about black people dying at the hands of an overly-aggressive police force. Those deaths happened, and the same kind of police response continues to happen, and the protests were arguing for systemic change to stop it. This, week, the protests were a bunch of entitled snowflakes throwing a tantrum because their side lost the election. Because their leaders have fed them lie after lie that the election was stolen through massive fraud, despite the fact that none of the many layers of people responsible for counting and recounting the vote found any evidence of fraud outside of one or two people here and there, and something like 50 courts — many involving Republican judges — agreed with those assessments.

  245. And, yeah, some of my reaction is based on my view of the worthiness of the cause. This summer, the protests were about black people dying at the hands of an overly-aggressive police force.

    I think it would be wrong to dismiss the concerns of the Capitol rioters, however inarticulate. Both sides have legitimate grievances that need to be addressed. Keeping in mind that they also have many illegitimate grievances. The election wasn’t stolen for example. We shouldn’t abolish prisons even if substantial justice reform is in order, etc.

  246. And the Parliamentarian’s office was ransacked in an attempt to get the electoral votes. So yeah, exactly equivalent morally to the BLM protests. Thank God for Duckworth’s staffers.

  247. Could you enumerate those, please?

    Atifa:

    1. Unaccountable and ill trained and supervised cops harassing and murdering the poor and minorities.

    2. An objection to the idea that racism is no longer a factor in American life.

    MAGA

    1. A conservative donor class hell bent on exporting as many jobs and importing as many immigrants as possible to maximize profits.

    2. The rise of the meritocracy dramatically lowering the status on men on the left side of the bell curve.

    Would be some examples.

  248. Thank God for Duckworth’s staffers.

    It’s more than that. The WP reporter who was there was with the Capitol Police and someone said they had to go extract Sen. Duckworth. She was barricaded in her office. The team banged on the door and said, “Sen. Duckworth! Sen. Duckworth! Sen. Klobuchar needs to speak with you.” Which is the obviously the pre arranged code phrase they had agreed on for just such a scenario.

    I thought props to whomever was thinking that far ahead.

    For those who don’t know, Sen. Duckworth lost her legs when the helicopter she was flying in Iraq was shot down.

  249. RMS,

    To add another we could ask what motivated the air force veteran who died. I don’t know what her story is. But many people were and are attracted to Trump by his objection to an interventionist foreign policy. Maybe because of what she had seen in the Air Force, she found that message especially appealing.

    She didn’t go about it the right way. But her core grievence is valid.

    (Again not that I know what her story is.)

  250. Her story, Rhett, is that she’s a huge Q-Anon follower, she tried to kill her ex-husband’s girlfriend, and she believed the election was stolen by Satan-worshippers. #Don’tSayHerName.

  251. “In other news where TLC is a hypocrite, I relented to the (fairly intense) social pressure, and took the first dose of Covid vaccine earlier this week when offered by my employer.”

    This surprises me not one bit. Not one bit.

  252. i know a couple Q-Anon believers. One of them I’ve known for almost two decades. She was a reasonable person. I didn’t always agree with her parenting decisions, but no big deal. She always seemed sane.

    I’m not sure how you go from sane to believing the Q-Anon stuff. And I’m not really sure how you even ask, why do you believe the nonsense? The stuff she posts on Facebook is bat crazy.

    I also have a cousin who is just as crazy on the other side.

  253. The attempted coup this week was so much crazier than the BLM protests. The President was involved. That is so insane it is hard to understand how anyone thinks it is in anyway equivalent to the BLM protests.

    Also – how did the other 3 people die? It isn’t normal for people to just drop dead at protests. Are MAGATs that out of shape that they just drop dead because they run a little?

  254. “In other news where TLC is a hypocrite, I relented to the (fairly intense) social pressure, and took the first dose of Covid vaccine earlier this week when offered by my employer.”

    TLC, why does that make you a hypocrite?

    If you’re feeling guilt because you got yours before others who are higher on the priority list, that may not be justified, depending on circumstances.

    Keep in mind that it is in the greater community’s interest to get as many people vaccinated as quickly as possible. If your getting vaccinated just speeds up that process, without keeping anyone else from getting theirs or having theirs delayed, there’s zero reason for any guilt on your part.

    From what I’ve been reading/hearing, it’s not like the vaccines are all being administered as soon as they’re delivered.

  255. Once the healthcare workers began to be vaccinated in large numbers with very few reports of immediate adverse effects, lots of people decided its not a bad thing. All the poll data is stale at this point.

  256. “Also – how did the other 3 people die?”

    Well one of them tazed himself and died of a heart attack. And one was the officer that the rioters beat with a fire extinguisher. I don’t know about the other 2. I heard one was trampled to death, but I did not confirm that with a reliable source.

  257. “I’m not sure how you go from sane to believing the Q-Anon stuff.”

    @Cass – I don’t know either, but there seem to be lots of formerly-sane people who get sucked in.

  258. “I think it would be wrong to dismiss the concerns of the Capitol rioters, however inarticulate.”

    At the beginning, MAGATs were brought together because of economic angst and disenfranchisement of the white middle aged and older man. But it has moved way beyond that. They were going after Pence. Because he “committed treason” by not overturning the certifications (as though he could do that). These are home grown terrorists that have been radicalized in part by our President. This is far beyond what Trump intended, but he cannot help himself because of the NPD and cannot stop it now anyway.

  259. “Well one of them tazed himself and died of a heart attack. And one was the officer that the rioters beat with a fire extinguisher. I don’t know about the other 2. I heard one was trampled to death, but I did not confirm that with a reliable source.”

    I wonder if the tazed guy had an underlying heart condition. That is not a typical way to die, either. I know about the officer getting his head bashed in. I guess Blue Lives don’t matter when you are trying to overthrow the government.

  260. Finn, I’ve posted on here before that I’m deeply skeptical about the rushed vaccine process, and particularly about the mRNA vaccines. The original plan was to be among the very last vaccinated, not among the first – thus the hypocrisy.

    Rhett, yes I have seen those Lin Woods and Sidney Powell tweets and, yes, I have wondered if they’ve lost their minds.

  261. I believe that woman who was trying to beat down a door was shot by Capital police was shot and died.

    Rhett, I think the person mentioned earlier probably is a good example. I bet there are many stories similar to hers among those people.

    WCE, I know you were responding to me, but Laura already gave my reaction.

  262. In trying their cases, the severity of their crimes, not the depravity of their leader or the responsibility he should have had, will be front and center. Attacking the seat of federal government, armed, disrupting the legislature in session, physically attacking guards and legislators, with weapons brought for that purpose. Some of those things took place in Lansing last summer. I haven’t heard of them in Seattle or Portland.

  263. The people I know, who believe in the election is stolen idea, had in the past been influenced by various other conspiracy theories. I am not surprised that they chose to believe this. Once the next conspiracy comes along, they will believe that as well. I have been told that the world will end numerous times. I will meet my end, while I wait.

  264. “I’ve posted on here before that I’m deeply skeptical about the rushed vaccine process, and particularly about the mRNA vaccines. The original plan was to be among the very last vaccinated, not among the first – thus the hypocrisy.”

    OK, in this light, Louise’s comment makes even more sense.

    I’m not so skeptical about the rushed process, because much of the rushing was about doing things in parallel that are normally done in series for financial reasons, e.g., start production of the vaccine before trial results are in. And because work had already been done with other coronaviruses, its’ not like they were starting from scratch.

    But like you, I’m not going to jump the line either. OTOH, if offered the vaccine without jumping the line, e.g., if there are a few doses that are on the verge of expiration that have no other takers, I’d take it.

  265. Trump is now banned from Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and Twitch. And Apple has told Parler to clean things up or they are gone.

  266. Trump is now banned from Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and Twitch. And Apple has told Parler to clean things up or they are gone.

    Now that he’s out of power and can’t hurt them. They’re such big brave boys, Jack and Mark and Jeff and Tim. Such brave boys. I’m so pwoud of them.

  267. Rocky, I agree, but you said it better. Could have avoided this whole damn thing if they would’ve had the balls to enforce their policies 5 years ago. MS media too, reporting on all the crazy things he said, just for fun.

  268. One woman, also a QAnon believer, was crushed to death. The guy who had the heart attack had a history of high blood pressure, per his family. He had social media posts of himself holding long guns in each hand and with hand guns in the picture saying something like “wish those m’f*ers would come down here” and “Obama should be out to death”. Here being Florida. I think the woman was from Georgia, so they all travelled a ways to get there. The last guy had a stroke.

  269. DD,

    I’m been so interested in that story. Are you familiar with the term failson? That’s a faildaughter, right?

    I feel bad for her as there is some kind of quirkiness going on. There is a reason she can’t hold a job and isn’t in school.

  270. DD, doesn’t she seem like a textbook case of privilege and cluelessness? I guess tone deafness as well.

  271. “His brother was photographed being inside the Capitol illegally.”

    Apparently in possession of something stolen.

  272. The current big social media companies face stiff competition from upstarts. Already the younger generation uses TikTok and Snapchat extensively. The pandemic has probably accelerated the development or popularity of many more platforms. I’m just thinking aloud here.

  273. So Clarence Thomas’s wife Ginni paid for 70 of the buses that brought people to the capitol. People that were coming to “stop the steal” by obstructing a constitutionally mandated piece of the electoral process in a lawfully conducted election. The wife of a Supreme Court Justice. That seems like a poor choice on her part. Do Supreme Court justices ever have to recuse, if for example, a case charging Trump with incitement at that rally ever made its way to the Supreme Court?

  274. I’m so pleased that Trump is apparently upset that his supporters were all dressed like lunatics and bozos. He wanted them all neatly dressed in brown shirts, I guess, and in tight formation. Having Right-Wing Comicon storm the Capitol didn’t appease him much.

  275. “I’m so pleased that Trump is apparently upset that his supporters were all dressed like lunatics and bozos.”

    So basically, he thinks that his own followers are deplorables.

  276. “Perhaps she isn’t the best example.”

    I just read an article about her. Sounds like she was a total misfit her whole life, never could get along with anyone, and became a fully radicalized whack job without any grip on reality. Weird for a woman her age, but seems about par for the course for MAGATs.

  277. Such silly-billies we are, clutching our pearls about the potential murder of Mike Pence.

  278. And stop saying zip-ties (I’m guilty of that too). They were plastic restraint cuffs, used by law enforcement. Oh noes! I think my pearls have snapped! What a little ninny I am to be concerned. Keep yawning and giggling, TLC. Tee hee hee! It’s so funny that five people died and literal shit was smeared all over the Capitol and property was destroyed. Here, darling. You can borrow my fan to hide your smile.

  279. Rocky, it’s not just Americans who are watching. The whole world is. The events are awful. But so many people are surprised and once again saying “this is not America” that it’s ridiculous. Not in a giggly kind of way, but come on people, let’s be real. If I could find it I’d post the IG I saw earlier today about how the outrage is just part of a cycle that lets people put blame elsewhere, and feel justified in doing nothing to change the way things work. I haven’t been doing my responsibility, but hopefully the job I start Monday will lead to me getting back to the kind of job where I can work for change like I used to.

  280. WCE, I’m wondering if Biden is considering half-doses of the Moderna vaccine. That would be one way to vaccinate more people without the risk that production doesn’t keep up.

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