Thursday open thread

We have an open thread all day

This listing of first-year earnings specific to majors and colleges may be of interest to some of you with kids in college.

Buyer Beware
First-Year Earnings and Debt for 37,000 College Majors at 4,400 Institutions


116 thoughts on “Thursday open thread

  1. Does a masters degree in nursing imply someone is an NP? 15k a month seems a little high. Or is this a degree in nursing management so the graduates are working in senior leadership roles?

  2. Some of my college friends are nurses and they have the MSN. They aren’t all nurse practitioners because it wasn’t as common BITD to become a NP. Some of them work in ORs or in other complex environments such as Sloan Kettering. They also manage other nurses. My understanding from my friends is that they got the MSN toake more money, but also to have the flexibility to be in more advanced clinical settings – like an operating room etc.

  3. Rhett – No. NP is different from a masters degree in nursing. NPs may end up with Masters, but not all Masters end up as NPs. Could be specialized nursing, education, management, research, clinical, etc.

    $15k per month may not be depending on where the nurse is… or what they do…

  4. The data in this visualization is messed up. In the first graph,when I tried to display computer science programs in NY, it only came up with 10 schools! There are far more schools in NY with CS degrees. And the second graph doesn’t have the actual majors for each school. As far as I can telll it is using those Labor department occupational classifications which are really bogus and messes up the statistics.

  5. For DD#1 her degree is listed specifically, so the chart is easy to read, but DD#2’s is not and I am having to sort of guess where it fits. However, it is clear that DD#1 will make roughly double what DD#2 will make based on this source. Of course, with same degree at another school, DD#2 would have double the initial earnings.

    I have tried having this discussion with DD#2 to ensure she realizes the impact of major and school on her future earnings, but only time will tell.

  6. NP is a masters degree in nursing, but there are many different MSNs as Rhode and Lauren said. $15k for an MSN is definitely not average, but there are many jobs/positions that pay it.

    They don’t have environmental science as a major, so pretty useless in regards to DS.

  7. DD – My DD#2 is similar, her degree is under the Natural Resources College. I looked under natural resources conservation and research (as she doesn’t want to do policy). It is an inexact table without a specific degree named.

  8. My gripe for the day. I’m precepting several students – usually I only do one at a time but with the difficulty in getting placements due to COVID I picked up a couple (I have sucker stamped on my forehead) – and one of them keeps cancelling the days she is supposed to come. Today was the fourth or fifth time she told me at the time she was supposed to be here that she wasn’t coming. I’m very flexible but I’ve had enough. I’m going to tell her tomorrow, assuming she comes, that if it happens again that we’re done.

  9. DD – I agree that is a lot of cancelling. However, you might ask why (unless she already told you) what the reason is. It may be out of her control. Though, if she has a job after this that could be a problem too.

  10. DD,

    It’s possible she doesn’t know there is anything wrong with her behavior. For whatever reason there are sometimes things that others consider obvious that some people just don’t pick up on unless they are told specifically.

  11. Looking at the numbers it says a degree in computer engineering from Northeastern comes with earnings of $7700 and debt payments of $263. That seems like a low debt payment. But could that mean that kids who choose to get an computer engineering degree from Northeastern tend to come from families that are able to pay most of the bill?

  12. Rhett — or it means the school covers financial need. Note that the Wake undergrad degrees — which gives almost no merit scholarships and cost a ton — all hover around the $200/mo. threshold.

    Of course, this also probably doesn’t count parent plus loans, either.

  13. Rhett – I think the debt numbers are just averages and they do not note how long the debt payment period is. If they had $25 K in debt, $263 a month (simple math) would be 95 monthly payments, or roughly 8 years. I did not have student debt, so I have no idea of what a typical payment is. BITD state flagships were even more cost effective than today

  14. Note that the Wake undergrad degrees — which gives almost no merit scholarships and cost a ton

    No merit aid as in no discounting? Like if you were able to get into Johns Hopkins or Northwestern but were willing to go to Wake they wouldn’t take $10k or $20k off the bill?

  15. DD, I agree with Rhett and Austin, and am thinking back to Becky’s recent post about “no” not always being the end. It could be that your student needs assistance thinking through ways to deal with some recurrent issue in her life. That online trainer I’ve mentioned before is brilliant at this. In her Facebook group, people bring one reason after another why they can work out, often in a complaining “I want to work out” kind of way, and she just hate them down, wham, wham, wham. Don’t have the equipment? Here’s another way to do the workout? Kid needs you unpredictably? Here are ten minute routines. You’re not strong enough? Start here. Body won’t bend that way? Try this modification. All done in a very caring tone, but in the end, she is relentless. Maybe that’s what the student needs. Or maybe what they need is a kick in the @$$

  16. It’s also possible she thinks that since DD is busy he will be happy/relieved to have her cancel. There is a group of people out there with a certain brand of quirkiness in which they just come to different conclusions than the majority of people.

  17. “No merit aid as in no discounting? Like if you were able to get into Johns Hopkins or Northwestern but were willing to go to Wake they wouldn’t take $10k or $20k off the bill?”

    Correct — something like 3% of kids get non-need-based aid. Believe me, I tried.

  18. I walked down the driveway a bit ago to get the mail. Walking back a young woman calls to me from the street “Sir (said I’m sure to make me feel old) I have a package for you.” I got it and noticed a box on our front porch. Coming off the porch I hear her again “you have another.” Both were UPS deliveries but she was driving her personal car. I asked about that “So you’re using your own car?” “Yes, right now we’re so frickin’ busy they’ve asked us to do some deliveries like this.”

  19. Being called “ma’am” always makes me feel old too. When I mentioned it, I was always told it was a sign of respect; and they always insisted it was not respect for old age but for…… well, just respect. Arg!

  20. Fred, yesterday and today I saw a UPS driver making deliveries in personal cars. They had UPS vests on, but not the full brown uniform. I figured they are temp workers. I’ve never seen that before.

  21. DD – I am not sure you think of yourself as signing on to be a mentor outside of the technical skills. I will say that I am grateful to my early supervisors and mentors who pointed out things that weren’t directly related to the job, but clearly helped me change things that enhanced my professional reputation. On the flip side, I work with people in both paid and volunteer roles who clearly have never had these things pointed out and it does hurt them. One woman is so abrasive and passive-aggressive that she cannot stay in any one volunteer or paid position very long.

  22. Fred and SM, what would you prefer someone trying to get your attention call you? All I can think of is “hey, mister!” Or “hey, lady!”. I despise when service people call my 55 yr old self “young lady” or anything similar. Just calling “excuse me” if you’re out in public is not guaranteed to catch the right person’s attention. I have no issues with ma’am. (Yesterday on a large team call, my former manager mentioned that “Becky has worked for XXX since before some of the team were born!” Now that one I didn’t appreciate!)

  23. Sir or ma’am does not make me feel old at all, which I guess comes from growing up in the south.

    “Of course, with same degree at another school, DD#2 would have double the initial earnings.”

    AustinMom — That’s quite a difference. Is it simply because the other school has a stronger reputation?

    L – The table was acting up when I tried to bring up some results. Not sure what’s going on.

  24. “a degree in computer engineering from Northeastern comes with earnings of $7700 and debt payments of $263.”

    Northeastern has a coop program, so their recent grads might have more experience than recent grads from other schools. They probably also use some of those coop earnings to pay school expenses and thus have less debt as well.

  25. DD – I agree that is a lot of cancelling. However, you might ask why (unless she already told you) what the reason is. It may be out of her control. Though, if she has a job after this that could be a problem too.

    She has said several times that she wants to catch up on school work, which is totally within her control.

    It’s possible she doesn’t know there is anything wrong with her behavior. For whatever reason there are sometimes things that others consider obvious that some people just don’t pick up on unless they are told specifically.

    Very true, although it’s not her first rotation. But that’s why I am going to talk to her about it and let her know it can’t continue.

  26. Kim – DD#1 is an electrical engineering major and DD#2 is environmental science – specifically wildlife biology with a minor in zoology. So, first there is the degree differential. Then, DD#1’s school is much harder to get into (ave ACT 31, SAT 1410) compared to DD#2’s school which more middle of the road (ave ACT 26, SAT 1186). DD#2 would struggle at DD#1’s nerdy school; it would not be a good fit for her.

  27. I figure it’s late enough that our HST friends should be up, so I want to pick up on something Finn said last week “I’m so ready to retire.”

    For me it’s “I’m probably ready to retire.” I’m just talking the mental part of walking away, not the financial part.

    1) I kinda think there are a lot of people of general retirement age who might have been considering calling it quits some time during 2020 but who continue to work because they can do it from home, so it’s easier than doing the commute thing, it’s not that hard, and they keep the cash flow positive for however long. As soon as they get called back to the office, IMO many will give their notice. Which will be good for those seeking work, but probably not till the 3rd or 4th quarter, 2021.

    2) I’m resistant to pull the trigger until what I’ll do with my time every day is more firmed up. The couple of volunteer things I think I’m interested in pursuing have suspended intake of new people during the pandemic.

  28. DD – I am not sure you think of yourself as signing on to be a mentor outside of the technical skills. I will say that I am grateful to my early supervisors and mentors who pointed out things that weren’t directly related to the job, but clearly helped me change things that enhanced my professional reputation. On the flip side, I work with people in both paid and volunteer roles who clearly have never had these things pointed out and it does hurt them.

    Austin, very good point. Although the students I precept are in NP programs so they have been working as nurses for at least a couple of years, so they should understand how important punctuality and reliability are. But maybe not. I’m extremely flexible, but when someone texts me and asks to meet tomorrow, and then texts me the next morning at the time they are supposed to come to say they aren’t coming, I get a bit annoyed.

    Most of the students I’ve had have been great and do my work for me :)

  29. Becky,you are right that “excuse me” or “hello” might not catch the right person in a crowd, when those are a thing again, but I assume Fred was the only person walking up his driveway. Even if there was someone with him, the driver probably would have been fine getting that person’s attention. And since the packages were for him, the driver could have asked “Mr Murray? Fred Murray?” If there are multiple people and the wrong one turns around, you can ask them to get the other person’s attention for you (though if you are in a culture where pointing is rude, that’s tricky sometimes too). I agree with you about “young lady” or “miss”. They bug me just as much as ma’am. I didn’t realize until too late that my son uses “sir” and “ma’am” when he thinks it’ll help. Now he does it just to get my goat, of course.

  30. I have no doubt that DD can be a helpful mentor in this situation. All that softball coaching helps. As someone else mentioned, just having someone tell you what is appropriate or not is so helpful. I’m reminded of my poor experience with having a mentor at my first job. I remember telling my mentor some things, that ended up coming back to my manager and showing up in a review. It would have been a lot more helpful for my mentor to point out how I was phrasing something or showing me that doing this and that impacts this team down the road, etc. As a 22 year old I just didn’t think that far outside of my bubble.

  31. Actually being called ‘sir’ doesn’t bother me one whit; it comes with the wizened turf and it’s how things are done. I typed it in a sarcastic font earlier today even though I didn’t indicate that. Happens all the time at the gym since all the workers there seem to be at least 30yrs younger than I, plus all the other members.

    I always joked that I would have my kids call me ‘sir’ from the beginning. Didn’t quite turn out that way. Maybe with the future grandkids?

  32. When I am getting irritated and want my kids to hop to it, they sense it and say “yes m’am”. I guess one just learns when to use it here.

    Fred – on retirement, colleagues who deferred retirement this year are going to retire next year. I suppose some of the delay is due to being stuck at home with no where else to go so, they may as well work.

  33. I need to rant for a minute. My employer has three groups of people at the moment. That handful of people who must come into the office daily because their work requires them to; those who come in to the office 1-3 times a week; and those who basically never have to come in. Nine months in to this, they are still “figuring out” what equipment other than a laptop can be taken home from the office. This means that many are working from their own computers/tablets.

    Today, we get an email that a big change to our computer system is happening over the weekend and we need to print out a 12 page document of instructions we need to print so we know what to do when we login on Monday. No option given for someone who doesn’t have a printer. It gets under my skin because we have a lot of lower paid employees who may not have a printer, may not have a computer other than their work laptop, and may not have the savvy to think to send it to their phone and read it from there.

  34. Fred, I’m open to continuing if things change as vaccination progresses.

    I think I’ve mentioned that I have two projects that are out of the country, and that had the pandemic not occurred, I’d have been traveling a fair amount for those projects. I’d also been figuring I’d at least see those projects through to completion.

    The pandemic has pushed both those projects to the right, but I’m still open to seeing them through. And if I find that satisfying I’d be open to continuing.

    I’ll be officially eligible to retire on Monday, so I’ll see if what my brother and some former co-workers have told me is true, that once you hit that point, work becomes more enjoyable because you can walk away if the job becomes less than pleasant or satisfying.

    IRL example: a guy I’d worked with before had a kid who was about to graduate from college. He’d made plans to attend graduation, and had his vacation days approved. Then his boss took another job, and his new boss rescinded the vacation approval, so he just figuratively told the new boss FU (maybe literally too), retired, and left before the new boss could hire a replacement.

  35. Ironically, I got an email this afternoon from her program coordinator asking to set up a time to talk about how the student is doing so far.

    TfL, it’s impressive how many employers are so clueless about stuff like that.

  36. On a positive note, I picked up McRibs for lunch to bring home to eat with DS so now my car has a wonderful McRib smell. They are still as good as ever.

  37. TfL,

    My pet peeve is not the constant barrage of test phishing e-mails. That I can kind of understand. It’s the departments sending out e-mails that look exactly like the scam e-mails asking you to log in to do something. Um…. if you don’t want us clicking on the phishing e-mails don’t send legitimate e-mails that look like phishing attempts.

  38. Since it’s an open thread day, this isn’t a hijack:

    My landline company just raised its rates by about 22%, and that’s finally pushing me to cut the cord. The same bill that had the increase also had a small charge for a long-distance call that I don’t think is valid, but not worth the time and effort to dispute. The taxes and fees are also getting ridiculous.

    Any thoughts on possible replacements? We’ve had this number for almost 25 years and would like to keep it.

    My first thought was to get a cell phone to keep at home, and see if we can tie it to our existing home phone with multiple handsets spread throughout the house. Boost has a $10/mo plan with unlimited talk and text. DW and DS have Boost service, and with their service, there are no taxes and fees added on, so I’m assuming their $10/mo plan similarly costs exactly $10/mo, with no taxes or fees added.

    DW suggested some VOIP solutions. Our cable/internet provider offers one, and it might be inexpensive if bundled with our existing service. Ooma and Magic Jack are other possibilities.

    Any thoughts, experience, recommendations, etc?

  39. Woops, prices may vary in AK and HI.

    Some area codes — Hawaii (area code 808) and Alaska (area code 907) — are not supported by Google Voice. So you should take this step first before wasting your time or money.

  40. Finn, why do you want to keep a landline? Several years ago we cut the cord and have Ooma. Honestly, we never answer that phone. It used to be only my parents called, but now that they finally got a smart phone they call/facetime our cell phones. The only reason we have Ooma is because I wanted a phone for DD2 to use in an emergency. She doesn’t have a cell phone yet, and if she needed to call 911 I don’t think she would be able to give our address (she is still shaky on getting it right, and an in emergency….I’m betting little chance she’d get it right).

  41. A couple of random things that just happened:

    DS got a $375 stimulus payment from the state. They are giving them to anyone who qualified for unemployment since March.

    DD’s school is going to do a quarter system next semester. They will have four classes one quarter and three classes the other. Apparently there are a lot of kids failing classes this semester and the administration thinks having fewer classes at time will make it easier for them. And also it will help keep the kids a little more separate as they return in-person (plan is to be back by Feb 1). The teachers are very upset about it and are asking parents and students to sign a petition against it.

    From a totebaggy standpoint, the big issue is for kids who have an AP class in the first quarter but won’t take the exam until April or whenever. From a non-totebaggy standpoint, people don’t see how it will help the failing kids because they’ll have twice as much work for each class.

  42. Finn, if you want to keep the number I’d suggest the VOIP option you mention. Probably the easiest way to keep the number and you’ll probably also save money at least for the first year,

    Note: we still have our 30yo landline(s). Back whenever, probably 10yrs ago, I started mentioning to DW that we could save $50/mo and put it toward something else if we cut the cord. Now it’s $60/mo. She still likes having it around. It does come in handy when the power goes out because it still works (vs cell/VOIP technology)

  43. DD, I feel for the teachers that have to pivot so quickly. It doesn’t sound like they had a say in this change, which is unfortunate, since they are the ones dealing with the failing kids every day.

    In our school news (middle school, I can’t speak for HS), they have removed* social studies for 6th graders, and for seventh and graders removed home ec (not called that) and maybe health. During that class time it is a study hall/social worker/break time/executive function skills. Basically giving the kids an opportunity to breath and destress. Some totebaggy parents are not happy with this, others love it. You can’t please everyone.

    *the 6th graders still have 1/2 class of social studies. They already have a middle school skills class that teaches them executive function/how to act on a video call/how to understand schoology and organize your life, etc.

  44. “It does come in handy when the power goes out because it still works (vs cell/VOIP technology)”

    That was one of the reasons we decided to keep it a while back, along with 911 and how landline calls to 911 automatically tell them our location. And once we decided that we didn’t revisit the decision until this rate increase. Perhaps if they made smaller increases along the way instead of a single big increase, I’d still not be revisiting this; OTOH, I had autopay set up, so any change in bill might’ve given me reason to reconsider.

    The other reason for a landline is the increase in 2-factor authentication. I’ve heard stories about cell phone numbers being hijacked, so I figured landlines are less vulnerable, and I always use the landline option when I can. However, it seems an increasing number of companies only give email and text options, and that trend could make this reason moot.

    But we haven’t had any extended power outages for a while, and when we did, we didn’t really need to call anyone, or receive calls. And TMK the 911 service has been improved so calls from cell phones now indicate location.

    I kinda like the cell phone option because I currently only carry an employer-issue cell phone, so when I retire I might then upgrade the plan and start using that phone. I’ve been told I can keep take my cell phone number with me when I retire, but I don’t know anyone who’s done that so I don’t know how true that is, or how easy it’d be.

  45. LT – my kids had an elective class in the 6th Grade that May kids took called “Study Skills”. It did make sense in the 6th grade because a lot of the kids had to move from parental supervision in elementary to learning to work on their own.
    Schedule changes are hard on the teachers. Right now, my kids and teachers have got into a good rhythm, even with pandemic zig zags. We are coming to the end of the first half of the school year and I am thankful that it’s gone quite OK.

  46. Had my follow-up ultrasound today. They found three cysts, but all are benign. The radiologist said that I don’t need any more follow-up for those — he said I should just go back for my regular screening mammogram in a year. So 2020 actually cut me a break for once! Thanks again to everyone who sent good wishes and advice yesterday.

    Re. classes, DD’s trimester ends tomorrow. She’s thrilled, because she won’t have Art any more this year. (Instead of having PE, Art, and Tech Ed each week, as they would have in normal times, the school decided to just have one of those classes at a time for each of three semesters.) She’s had more homework in Art this term than in any other subject.

  47. We use Ooma and like having a number to give out instead of our cell phones.

    “ I didn’t realize until too late that my son uses “sir” and “ma’am” when he thinks it’ll help. Now he does it just to get my goat, of course.” You’ve posted this sentiment before, but I’ve never understood it. Maybe it’s because of where I grew up, but I think manners like these just make the sharing of space among 330 million people a tiny bit less friction-y. (Not arguing with you – obviously you can like/dislike whatever, and can pass on to your child whatever you want.)

  48. DD, our high school put fewer classes per quarter but compressed them from a semester and in my opinion, it does not work well for math. DS1 is in Algebra 2 and having 4 class days to cover 10 class days of material was not adequate, especially since going over the review happened in the same class period as the exam, so no chance to go over what was missed on the review. I’m having him do extra work during this (off) quarter to solidify his grasp of the material.

  49. Becky, people who encounter us in an informal situation for the first time are often confused by our words and sometimes by our tone.

  50. Finn/Fred, I should’ve just gone with my gut & said “Flintstone”. I was so pleased with myself for that bit of pop culture knowledge, darn it.

  51. I don’t mind being called Ma’am. I don’t care what you call me, just don’t call me late for dinner. One of the gifts for me of being over 50 is that I just really don’t care about that stuff. Don’t care ho people see me, or don’t see me, like me or don’t like me. DO.NOT.CARE. I’ll just be over here living my best life. It is really the best.

  52. Finn – my understanding is that a land line without paid service will still work to call 911. Maybe not in Hawaii.

    We use google voice to maintain an American number. It has proven essential for banking and all kinds of other verifications. It’s kind of cool that I can give people an American number to call me at. It doesn’t work great, but for the one-time $20 charge, it’s amazing.

  53. I don’t care if people call me sir, it’s because they are being polite. I do have a really irrational hatred of Mr. Lastname, though. I much prefer being called by my first name.

  54. We gave up our landlines in 2006. I’ve been trying to find a non-phone option for our kids but not a lot of great options. Tried to Gizmo by Verizon but after 3 watches not holding a charge we switched to TickTalk watches. Now one of the microphones isn’t working. Oh well. Now that it is cold out, the kids aren’t going to the park.

    NoB – what a relief! I didn’t get a chance to respond yesterday. I also have dense tissue and after an annual exam had to go in for an ultrasound. It was just a cyst, and I was 99% sure it was a cyst, but I was still incredibly anxious. I’m glad that you were able to get in so quickly.

    Lolly – I love you. And your post reminded me of an interview I saw of Tyne Dailey (spelling and I might have it wrong but actress from Cagney and Lacy). It might have been on Charlie Rose and probably 15 years ago. I just remember the main point of it that she said she finally came in to her own in her 50s and was rocking it. I remember being in my 20s and thinking that I may not have my shit together now but life only gets better.

  55. “I’ve been trying to find a non-phone option for our kids but not a lot of great options.”

    What kind of option do you mean? What are your criteria?

  56. Finn, the last time we had to evacuate for a fire (2018), reverse 911 worked for our landline, but not for those with cable service VoIP phones.

    For Anon who doesn’t like whole article posting, with 2 clicks, I can get from the last post to the comment posting window on android – click back button, then click post link. I was scrolling around until I thought about your post.

    Add me to the group that likes to see the whole article, and I subscribe to both WSJ & NYT.

  57. SBJ, thanks,

    I’ll point out that DW and I both got the nuclear attack warning on our cell phones (different carriers) but we did not get it on our landline.

  58. LT, the lesson they took from the last four years, and what’s going on in our country currently, is that social studies is unnecessary? Who needs to understand the constitution or recognize the different ways the pandemic is affecting people anyway? Jeesh.

    I can’t remember exactly when I last had a landline. Had one but no cell when my son was a baby, had a cell but no landline in Germany when he was 6. Clearly, giving it up was no big deal.


    Yesterday, DD was wrapping up her school Secret Santa gift. In the depths of the pandemic some things go on.

    From the article – the virtual office party. This company did something different.

    “In Georgia, marketing company 3MP Atlanta convened last week with around 600 of its sales representatives and managers in a virtual ski lodge, which was outfitted with a fireplace, a Christmas tree and tables. Attendees could click on different tables to move around and video chat with colleagues, part of an effort to mimic the feel of a real party, says Ed Cunliffe, 3MP Atlanta managing partner, who hosted the event. He introduced the online ugly Christmas sweater competition, complete with a $500 cash prize.”

  60. For those with older kids I am liking the Netflix teen series Derry Girls (warning bad language).

  61. Louise, if I had an office party, virtual or not, to wear this thing my sister just sent me, I’d win the “ugly” contest for sure! It’s from Amazon, ugh. Doesn’t look like I can get anything other than Amazon credit for it. Told you guys I hated gift exchanges with my family.

  62. Amazon credit seems like a decent option since you can buy almost anything on Amazon with the credit.

  63. SM – I find it difficult to do specific gift items for family overseas. It’s easier if I just find non specific gift items. I used to use a flower/gift service for the home country. I don’t know whether they are still in business given the pandemic.

  64. Lauren, that’s what I thought last year when I returned something for a couple hundred $$. Thought I’d use that money on black friday this year to get thing I’d asked for, but then found out someone apparently hacked into my account. I’ve been on chat with a customer service agent for half an hour, trying to figure this out. Also, she bought it on instead of, so anything we get has a huge postage price added.

    Rocky, AITA?
    I asked for one from Pier 1, like the one I got her a couple years ago. Should’ve just kept that one in the first place. Bah, humbug!

  65. Louise, that is an excellent idea!! If I give you their number, will you call my family? ;)
    psst–I’m joking!

  66. SM – let them know they should use next time. They will need to login specifically to the website instead of

  67. So back to the college salary thingie… Last night, we got this mandate handed down from the heavens (aka one of the deanlets)

    At this week’s administrative planning meeting, our financial aid office advised us that starting next semester, students receiving federal financial aid must verify he/she has visited this website and reviewed the starting salaries in their field of study. We do not know how this works yet but chairs and program directors must ensure that it happens.
    (link to collegescorecard attached)

    Yay! Another unworkable task for us poor PDs.

  68. Rocky, thank you!!

    Louise, they’ve done that in the past. The little tragedy I described in my 7:32 post is at

    Mooshi, what a weird order!

  69. Mooshi, are you familiar with this twitter account? You should be.

  70. As I expected, my student cancelled again this morning, texting me at 7:25 when she was supposed to be here at 7:30. It’s snowing and she cancelled the last time it snowed as well. It’s Colorado, it snows, we deal with it.

  71. Day One of Quarantine. I’m doing some online Christmas shopping in my basement’s little office setup, and since I brought my extra monitor home from work, I can run YouTube videos on the side screen.

    For anyone who likes pop automotive history as Rhett and I do, this is an entertaining look at a 1979 Lincoln Continental Town Coupe with only 14k miles. It was a $14k car in 1979, which translates to $50k today.

  72. It’s snowing and she cancelled the last time it snowed as well. It’s Colorado, it snows, we deal with it.

    Oh puhleeze! It’s not even really snowing. That’s a light frost out there.

  73. Denver, you know we are all looking forward to the report on your conversation with her. My “favorite” student excuse was “the power went out so I couldn’t open the garage door to come to class”. Of course, for multiple days, cutting it this close to when she should be there, she’s got to do better than that.

  74. Oh puhleeze! It’s not even really snowing. That’s a light frost out there.

    I know. It was about the same last time as well.

  75. S&M, no, but I don’t spend much time on Twitter. I do read r/Professors and highly recommend it. Many of the posts deal with the absurdity of academia.

  76. I get why that is a PITA to make sure students look at something. Take a page out of DD#1’s college playbook. You need to register for classes, assume online. You add a check box that says – I went to this website and… to the form that if it isn’t clicked you can’t submit your registration. If the student clicks without doing that, they lied. Transfers liability.

  77. DD – it also seems as the profession she’s chosen is one that requires people to show up in all kinds of weather/extenuating circumstances. While I don’t know any jobs where you can no-show 5 times in a row, she’s chosen one where punctuality and attendance are critical.

    I have a work friend whose entire extended family other than she and her DH are essential workers. They’re both wfh, and the remainder are highway patrol troopers and nurses. Interesting Thanksgiving discussions ensued.

  78. “Milo: quarantine??? What did I miss?”

    Oh, sorry. Nothing exciting. We’re trying to isolate for a week before we visit DW’s parents for Christmas. And we’ll be there for a week, too, so it’s really two weeks of doing nothing.

  79. Hmmm…
    OK, I hate to burst your bubble, but do you know how hard it is to get the little checkbox added to the registration site???? All of the registration software is canned third party software, so making changes like that takes months.

    This semester, for federal financial aid purposes, we had to verify that every student in an online course had “interacted” with the course at least once. I don’t know why the faculty word for it wasn’t good enough, but it wasn’t. So my university created a little online site where students could click on a check box. But it was too braindead to record student contact info, or maybe FERPA prevented it or something. So all the faculty were required to do was to create an online quiz in Canvas (the LMS) with some amount of credit attached to it. The online quiz had to have the link to the university checkbox site, and students had to click the link, then remember to come back to the quiz and enter a statement saying they had checked the checkbox. Finally, we faculty then had to send a report to the appropriate deanlet with the names of the students who had completed this task. You can imagine the total confusion on the part of the students, many of whom followed the link but failed to come back to the quiz and type the statement. It took many, many emails from me to get everyone to do this.

  80. Denver – I think it is time to talk to her (not text) about this issue. I know it is more than you signed on for, but you may be making a huge impact on someone’s life.

    I watched a newly minted graduate who applied to the workforce what worked in school sink because (1) her supervisor would not give her feedback because when he’d start to give it she’d tear up and he couldn’t keep going, (2) feedback from anyone else (in her eyes didn’t matter), and (3) she was crushed and tried to sue when her performance evaluation was sub-par. Yes, the supervisor issue was also a problem, but I think she would have benefited from more guidance in school

  81. Denver – I agree with AustinMom. You will be doing her a tremendous favor in life by being blunt with her on how her cancellations are an issue.

  82. MM – I guess all schools are different. DD#1s school does this often. It is just a barrier to registration to not click the box. You MUST click it to register. This is what they did with a whole bunch of COVID requirements – agree to testing, agree to report symptoms daily, agree your housing meets their standards – but not clear that anyone checked that the student actually read the document with all the detail. However, those who failed to get tested as required where first warned, then suspended.

  83. RMS & MM, lolol.
    I remember one extremely awkward Christmas dinner when my sister was steaming about how unfair the university was being to her poor little 20-something boy. When asked to explain the issue, a large part of his complaint centered on the fact that the prof was being insistent about something because of was on the syllabus. This was when I was still teaching. It was not a simple conversation.

  84. We have a requirement that students meet with an advisor to approve their course requests before registering. In order to enforce that, students have to have a special number that they enter to register. This is part of the registration software functionality, so I think this is common. Anyway, in the Before Times, students would make an advising appointment, we would look over their requested courses, and then give them the special code. What we do now is competely crazy. Students are emailed a form, which they fill out with their course selections, and then email back to either a university level advisor (freshmand and seniors) or to the PD for their program. The advisor receives this, looks it over, fills out another piece of the form with the special code and advisor name and date, and sends it back to the student, cc’ing a special email address where I guess they are collecting all this data. As you can imagine, this is very error prone. Many students overlooked the email because they are bombarded with tons of email, and had no clue how to register. Others had questions but couldn’t figure out how to ask them given the format. The university advisors were constantly emailing me with questions about seniors that they didn’t know how to answer because they don’t know much about our programs. One of the reasons I was so stressed out and overworked in Oct-Nov was because of the fire hose of email advisement forms I was receiving.

    I have also watched my kids register at two other universities, and their systems are just as bad. DS1’s school uses a similar code to register. This semester, the systems were so messed up that they had to delay registration by 3 weeks – he just finished registering last week. And CUNY, don’t get me started on them. The worst online processes ever. Just finding a course takes forever because you have to scroll through all the listings for all the campuses in a website that I am sure has never been modified since 1999.

  85. Thanks for the further replies. Yes, I will definitely have a ftf talk with her, I would not have a conversation like this via text or email.

    And yes, in this field you need to show up for work as scheduled, especially as a floor nurse, which she is. There’s another nurse who can’t leave until you get there.

  86. “OK, I hate to burst your bubble, but do you know how hard it is to get the little checkbox added to the registration site????”

    As someone who knows nothing about the technology involved, I’m surprised to hear this. But I suspect part of the problem is bureaucracy.

  87. In COVID vaccine news, one of m AL facilities has been contacted by CVS about setting up a clinic for it and they are going to try to get me in as well. No date yet and it will likely be set on short notice.

  88. DD — please keep us updated. I recently received an email from CVS with subject line of We Need You to Help End the Pandemic that was recruiting HCWs. It must have gone to everyone on their list.

  89. Kim, I’m sure that email from CVS was blasted to everyone who’s ever had a loyalty card. They sent it to me too.

    I find this dress hilarious. Who among us, when forced to endure the torture of turtleneck sweaters in our youth or childhood, didn’t pull it up over our face, at least a few times?

  90. Kim, the issue is mostly software. The registration site is not a plain old web site. What students see is generated by the backend software, which we purchased from a vendor. In reality, most web sites where people “do things” are generated by a backend layer of software.In the case of say the Amazon ordering site, they control the backend software so they can quickly make changes. But many schools purchase the registration systems so it is harder to make changes. There may well be some customization API so that certain things can be added to the display, but it is often kind of limited. If there is extensive customability, then you need to have IT people on campus who can do that, and many schools just don’t have that level of staffing. I think we push all website modifications to a consulting company, so even changes in wording can take weeks or even months.

  91. HDN, thanks for mentioning that. I like her—she’s really good.

    I dip in and out of the politics page, certainly don’t follow step-by-step he-said, she-said, because that is not the point, as far as I’m concerned, at all.

  92. Finn, I’m going to do it during one of her clinical days (assuming she shows up). She said she is going to come Monday. We’ll see.

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