Politics Open Thread, Nov 4–10

Our starter topic comes courtesy of Rocky Mountain Stepmom.

Is Multiculturalism Bad for Women?

(Spoiler alert: Yes.)

By Susan Moller Okin, one of the very best Anglo-American feminist theorists of the late 20th – early 21st century. I just learned today that she died in 2004 at age 57, and I am sad about that. The article is rather long, but very readable and clear. She was always a clear, thoughtful writer.

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189 thoughts on “Politics Open Thread, Nov 4–10

  1. I think it is an interesting, albeit not very novel, discussion of the tension between the values and practices of a dominant culture (including, perhaps, feminism), and the values and practices of minority cultures. I think she sees it too much through the lens of feminism – a more general way of looking at this is the clash between individual freedoms and the practices of a group. For example, boys in ultra conservative Hasidic communities are disadvantaged, at least from the viewpoint of the outside world, in their educations since they are often not taught to be literate in English. There have been a few recent lawsuits about this in New York, but in general, a way that Hasidic boys individual freedoms are limited is simply by not teaching them what they need to know to survive outside the community.

    And that leads to my other critique – this is phrased too much in terms of immigrant cultures vs nonimmigrant cultures. But it isn’t so simple. There are many nonimmigrant cultures in any country that repress its members, especially women, more than the dominant culture might like. Think of very fundamentalist Christian communities, the Hasidic communities in Rockland County, and even our delightful, cheery Mormon neighbors. And to take this another step – who gets to say which values should be the dominant ones? In this country, feminism and feminist theory is largely associated with the bicoastal elites. I am old enough, and so is RMS, to remember when it was a major subject of debate as to whether women with kids should work at all. In my mother’s generation, married women were expected to stop working. There are many people in this country who are still rather uncomfortable with feminism – and these people see themselves as the dominant culture. If political power keeps swerving to the right, feminists may wish for a little more multicultural respect from the newly conservative dominant culture.

    This isn’t to discount the problems with groups that have practices that seem extremely abhorrent to the majority in the country. I think enforcement of laws is the best approach, recognizing still that the laws could be wrong too. We no longer tolerate polygamy (for the most part, because there are some radical Mormons out there who practice it) and we don’t tolerate slavery any more. Groups should not be able to practice slavery, for example, in this country even if it is a permitted practice in their home country. But we need to be careful and recognize that groups who repress individual freedoms more than we progressives would like can be domestic as well as immigrant, and also to recognize that the values of whichever group is dominant may still not be the best for individuals.

  2. I think I’ve read that article before, because I’ve long struggled with the American “equality” goals of feminism vs. European “difference” feminism vs. what I’ll call “international” feminism, that women should have basic rights to education, safety, and not be forced into marriage or sold for sex. When I lose sleep at night about the status of women, it’s about how women can be treated justly around the world, and whether my children and others’ children should serve in militaries to that end. I do not lose sleep about the fraction of women CEO’s in the Fortune 500.

  3. “In my mother’s generation, married women were expected to stop working.”

    That wasn’t universal across the country. I’ve mentioned before that when I was a kid, it was the exception rather than the rule when a kid had a SAHM.

  4. Sorry, I’ve been out doing healthy outdoor activities instead of being on the Internet. The article is from 1999, so saying it’s not very novel is a little like complaining that Shakespeare is full of cliches. It’s absolutely an older piece, and I sent it in because I miss Okin. It’s also the day before the election now, so if you want to discuss other stuff, that’s fine.

    And to take this another step – who gets to say which values should be the dominant ones?

    A standard response, to be sure. Rather than write a multi-page essay on the subject, I will merely point out that a liberal democracy has the right to defend itself. If the encroaching values of another culture start to change the liberal democracy, those who wish to keep its values may defend it. We always return to the paradox of tolerance, which I have posted twice now, so I’ll spare everyone.

    I hope you found the article interesting, even though it’s not current.

    Looks like Jared Polis is likely to win the governor’s race in Colorado.

  5. Certainly many married women worked, although I think it was more based on class than region. My MIL worked once her kids were old enough to go to elementary school, out of economic necessity, and many of her female relatives did too. But the aspiration, even for them, was to have a husband who made enough money so they didn’t have to work. And men were embarrassed if their wives worked. It wasn’t supposed to be that way, in their mind. Keep in mind I am talking about the 40’s and 50’s.
    The culture started changing in the mid 60’s, but I can remember having a class debate in the 70’s on the question “Should married women work?”. It was not a settled question, not at all.

    I also can remember when the Help Wanted ads in the paper were separated into a Men Wanted category and a Women Wanted category.

    The point I wanted to make was that there are many groups in society who want to restrict women’s rights in one way or another, and they aren’t all immigrants

  6. ” I will merely point out that a liberal democracy has the right to defend itself. If the encroaching values of another culture start to change the liberal democracy, those who wish to keep its values may defend it.”
    So do you see Mormons, who definitely restrict women’s roles in ways that many of us would find unacceptable, to be one of those “other cultures” that a liberal democracy should defend against? How about the Hasidic communities that control entire towns in Rockland County, NY? And those
    Amish? We may love their furniture and farm produce, but they don’t follow the values of a liberal democracy very well.

  7. My observation is that even though the home country cultures are evolving and in many cases progressing in favor of women, some immigrant pockets tend to be in a time wrap. The fact that cultures are changing is not realized by those who want to accomodate traditional and regressive practices. I have this sort of debate and conversation very frequently – people remember the roses not the warts.

  8. The Amish suck rocks at liberal democracy. Also, many of their sweet little communities are extremely abusive. (The things you learn when you join a Mennonite church!) I don’t like the values of those communities, but I think they have to be tolerated (which means you loathe them, but you allow them to exist. It does NOT mean you just love them to pieces, or that you say “hey man, who’s to say?”). You do, however, in the liberal democracy, have to provide police services and protections to those who wish to leave. You have to provide those who wish to leave with the same steps to membership in the larger community that you provide to everyone else, including access to education, jobs, social services, etc.

    I also support interventions that require the members to all be educated to minimum U.S. standards. Yes, that will interfere with their abilities to raise their children as they see fit. Nevertheless, the supporters of liberal democracy have a right to defend it by educating its citizens, and by taking those steps necessary to ensure that individual rights are supported.

    Americans have an annoying tendency to be adolescent about moral and political values. We’re all like a bunch of 14-year-olds who insist that there is RIGHT and WRONG and no nuances or tensions that we just have to live with. But there are tensions that we have to live with. This is one of them. As the years and decades pass, we lean one way and then another on the issues, trying to find the balance. You can’t just let those Amish kids remain illiterate, and yet we have to let people form communities to pursue their vision of the Good. But inevitably humans’ vision of the Good involves oppressing others, especially women. So then we have to lean towards reining in those communities. Back and forth we go. There’s no alternative.

  9. @RMS – Great post just now. I totally agree. Also agree with Louise that people remember the roses not the warts.

    As a woman, I find “traditional values” alarming, because that signals to me a time when my husband or father legally made decisions for me – no access to work, banking, or even medical care without his sign off. NO THANK YOU. That was not all that long ago.

    I have only been marginally following this GA Gubernatorial race, but let me get this straight – the current person in charge of running voter registration AND the election itself is a candidate in said election?????!!! How in the hell is that possible?

  10. “Multiculturalism” is good for the women, most of them college-educated, who are employed in the “diversity” industry — at universities, all levels of government, corporations, and nonprofits. It’s not so good for women who are part of a non-Western culture within the US that doesn’t track with Western ideas regarding the dignity and equality of women. For that matter, those cultures are often not good for homosexuals and members of minority racial/ethnic/religious groups.

    If you flip the question around and ask whether current American (or Western) culture is good for women, the answer would be a resounding yes. Although there is certainly room for improvement, it is hard to identify another country/culture in which women have it better than we do here. And now.

  11. “My observation is that even though the home country cultures are evolving and in many cases progressing in favor of women, some immigrant pockets tend to be in a time wrap.”

    Autocorrect?

    I agree with your point. We see that here, where tourists from other countries like to attend events here to see what those events were like in their country several generations ago.

  12. When I was in college, I dated a guy from Italy. He had an elderly relative who had emigrated from somewhere in southern Italy to the US a long time ago, probably in the 30’s. We went to visit her once. She didn’t speak very good English, and it was clear that he was having a hard time understanding her in Italian too. When we left, he just shook his head and said that she spoke some country dialect that had long ago disappeared in Italy, and that she seemed surprised to learn that everyone in Italy now had indoor plumbing. This was in Boston, where at that time there were still some really insular communities of Italian immigrants.

  13. Mooshi – My widowed non-Italian immigrant neighbor (her grandchild was one of my babies’ age) owned quite a bit of local real estate, and not only did not speak more than a few words of English, she could not read or write. That was not an uncommon story for the older generation in many areas.

  14. Meme – we have clients like that. They have about 30 parcels of real estate, mostly commercial. We haven’t been able to get them to do any estate planning (they have come to us for the real estate work). Their son needs to translate for them and so we’re not sure whether he is telling them what we’re saying or not – we would need to provide a separate translator to be sure.

  15. L, it’s generally standard policy in healthcare to not use family as translators because you don’t know what they are telling the patient, and if they are telling you what the patient actually said. I recommend bringing in your own translator the next time you want to discuss estate planning because you have no way of knowing if the son is trustworthy.

  16. DH and I voted early. Honestly, this is the first non-Presidential election I’ve voted in. Had to support Beto!

  17. I mailed my ballot in last week, but DW only filled hers out over the weekend. She or I will probably drop it off for at the polling place tomorrow.

    Is election day a holiday for you? Here, it’s a state and county holiday.

  18. Houston – DH And I also voted early, and brought both of our kids. Four more for Beto – and my DD is pretty conservative. My neighborhood Facebook page is full of Beto-hate (say goodbye to your guns!) , so I hope there is support for him somewhere.

    I am really looking forward to seeing The results of many races tomorrow night.

  19. My kid filed his absentee ballot last week. His university set up a table where they handed out stamps, because so many college students don’t know how to get stamps.

  20. Election Day is not a holiday here. I understand if it is in some places because of more limited poll hours. Here we can vote 6a-9p but Texas, eg, only 7a-7p

  21. “so many college students don’t know how to get stamps.”

    They sold them at the front desk of my dorm freshman & sophomore years. In grad school, there was a post office on campus.

  22. I guess I should explain stamps and where to buy them to DD.

    DS understands the concept, but when it looked like he needed to actually buy some, wasn’t sure where to buy them.

    FTM, I haven’t bought stamps in a while. I bought a bunch of forever stamps several years ago at Costco, and haven’t had to buy any since. Do they still sell them in vending machines at Post Office branches?

  23. There were a number of articles in the past few weeks surveying college students as to why they didn’t vote, and not knowing how to mail an absentee ballot, including how to buy stamps, came up frequently.

  24. Finn there is a large full service post office one block from the university book store. And they sell books of 20 at the CVS on the main square.

  25. I need stamps to pay some odd bills each month – co-pays for medical stuff mainly – and to send cards to relatives. Last week, I had to mail back some form from my insurance company demanding to know if the MRI I got last March was due to a workplace accident.

  26. My kid actually knows how to buy stamps and mail stuff because when he was younger, I used to send him out to the post office to do those things for me. But seeing the table setup reminded him that he needed to mail the ballot so he did it right then.

  27. Latest Amazon news – there will be two new HQ with 25K employees each. Best guess is Crystal City VA and Dallas area.

  28. All the POs here have self-service kiosks where you can buy stamps, as well as mail packages.

  29. Our kids don’t have school tomorrow, since Election Day is always a professional development day for teachers in our district. That system was created way back when because several neighborhood schools used to be used as polling places, and it was easier for everyone to have the kids away from the buildings on election day. As things have evolved over the years, the schools are no longer used for voting, but Election Day remains a professional day for teachers.

    This year I am going old-school and voting in person on election day itself.

  30. I ask because back in the early 1990s, I had a boyfriend who lived in Crystal City, and it already seemed pretty built-up back then.

  31. I think the reason Election Day is a state and county holiday here is also because most polling locations were, and still are, schools.

    My small kid time memories of Election Day are my parents letting us kids sleep in, but heading to the polls early themselves. When they got home from voting, we’d have breakfast, then pack up the car and head to the beach.

  32. Grocery stores sell stamps at the checkout counter.

    Super nervous about the Georgia Governor’s election tomorrow. On the upside, tomorrow is opening day for UNC basketball so I’ll have something to celebrate no matter what.

  33. My small-kid memory of Election Day was what a big deal my parents made of it. Last week, on the “American Dream”‘ thread, I shared the background of my immigrant parents. Due to their background, they took voting very, very seriously. My dad would come home early from work on Election Day (something he very rarely did), and we would go as a family to the polling place. I went into the voting booth with one parent, and my brother went in with the other. Afterwards, we went out to dinner (also something that we very rarely did). It really did make a lasting impression on me.

  34. NoB, the first time DS could vote (2016) we went as a family during early voting and went out to dinner. We went as a family this time as well. I’m hoping they’ll see this as something they always do. DS said he tried to encourage some friends to vote but they don’t want to talk about politics.

  35. We voted early since DH was going to be away on election day. Very easy! I think the polls are open 7a-8p in MA. No holiday here either.

  36. Crystal City is pretty much built up but there is apparently a lot of vacant office space there.

  37. I made 7 layer dip and we ate that with chips for the 2016 election. The boys remembered that and requested it so we’ll be having 7 layer dip with chips again for supper tomorrow. On the West Coast, you can watch returns come in from eastern states pretty early. This is the first election where all my boys have some understanding of government, I think.

  38. Another report said Long Island City as the second location for Amazon. That makes more sense.

    I have always voted in MA, walking from my home to the local school, identfying myself as an elderly lady crosses my name off the list and hands me a paper ballot, filling in the ovals behind the curtain in the booth, carrying the completed ballot to another table and identifying myself to another lady, inserting the ballot into the wooden box through the slot and turning the crank until it disappears, buying a treat on the way out from the bake sale table.

  39. I love, love, LOVE voting and voting in person!!! I seriously get goosebumps and tear up. In 2008, the line was blocks long and it felt like a big party. I feel the most American on election day and wish it were a national holiday. DH doesn’t quite feel the same, but I insist on taking our kids so they experience it. I told my sister she needed to bring her middle school girls with her. She thought that was a good idea and never considered it before. I told her to tell her girls that our grandmas were born before women had the right to vote and that it is a big deal.

  40. I love election day. I’m bummed that I have a class tonight and won’t get to sit in front of the TV with a bowl of popcorn watching the coverage until after 9 PM. My vote won’t matter in any way, the winners are foregone conclusions, but still, the event is fun as a spectator sport. I’m actually most excited about the local school board election, which for the first time ever, has been hotly contested in a throw the bums out sort of way, with passionate parents running to take over from the district superintendent’s yes men. It has been really fun to watch this happen. But my school board rep is not up for reelection this year, so no fireworks in my neighborhood.

  41. Long Island City is a hot place that has already experienced quite a growth spurt. Very importantly for people I know, it’s an easy train ride to Manhattan.

    Regarding young people not voting, one of the factors mentioned in the article last week was that many millennials move frequently and they find it inconvenient or unimportant to register to vote in their current location. That’s what I’ve seen with some millennials I know.

    I will vote today but most or all of the outcomes are foregone conclusions, including governor and senator. For federal congressional rep and the two state reps, the democratic candidates are running unopposed. But I will enjoy watching nationwide returns tonight because it appears there could be some surprises.

  42. many millennials move frequently and they find it inconvenient or unimportant to register to vote in their current location.

    Doesn’t every state have motor voter? Or are they not updating their drivers licenses or IDs either?

  43. the event is fun as a spectator sport

    Oh ugh. My next-door-neighbor has invited us over to watch the results with other neighbors, and we’ll go for awhile to be sociable, but I’d rather just crawl under the bed until Thursday.

  44. RMS, I’m with you. Planning on not watching anything tonight. My recent memories of election nights are terrible (2016!) so I’d rather not!

  45. I also love election day. I always wear blue and white, sometimes with a bit of red. But like L, I also have PTSD from 2016 so I’m feeling doubly anxious tonight.

    DH has decided he can’t vote for Stacey Abrams (D) for governor. But he told me this morning he decided not to vote for Kemp either, in order not to cancel out my vote. I think it was the most romantic thing he’s ever said.

  46. “I seriously get goosebumps and tear up.”

    TCMama — this exact thing happened to me half an hour ago when I went to vote.

    “I have always voted in MA, walking from my home to the local school, identfying myself as an elderly lady crosses my name off the list and hands me a paper ballot, filling in the ovals behind the curtain in the booth, carrying the completed ballot to another table and identifying myself to another lady, inserting the ballot into the wooden box through the slot and turning the crank until it disappears, buying a treat on the way out from the bake sale table.”

    This was my exact experience this morning. Just substitute “local function hall” for “local school,” and Meme described it 100%. Although the collection box grabbed the ballot automatically (like when you put a card into an ATM slot) — no need to hand crank.

    DH will watch the results come in tonight, but I’m going to bed at my normal time. I don’t want sleep-deprivation crankiness on top of any post-election crankiness that I might experience.

  47. Lark, that’s awesome, although it’s too bad he can’t vote for Abrams.

  48. Lark, here’s a pamphlet against women’s suffrage. Reason #3 is that a wife’s vote will either double her husband’s vote, or cancel it out. Yeah. I know.

  49. “Long Island City is a hot place that has already experienced quite a growth spurt. Very importantly for people I know, it’s an easy train ride to Manhattan.”
    But the tech millenials won’t be living in Manhattan. They can’t afford it. They will be living in Red Hook, or Jersey City. The ones with families will be in Tuckahoe or Bayside, or futher out on the island. It is a real pain to get to Queens from any of these places without a car.

  50. @ RMS – wow, that’s pretty stunning. Nauseating, in fact.

    I am not surprised he won’t vote for Abrams. He’s economically pretty conservative, and she’s very progressive. He almost always votes R in state races – more likely to vote D in national ones.

  51. But the tech millenials won’t be living in Manhattan. They can’t afford it.

    What’s the starting salary for a developer at Amazon? In Boston it’s $125k plus $10k plus bonus plus 20k in equity plus a $20k signing bonus. You can live in Manhattan on that.

  52. You can’t live in Manhattan on 125K

    Sure you can. 30% of gross is $3125/month. The median rent for a one bedroom in Carnegie Hill is $3400. You could also do a studio or split the rent on a two bedroom which would be $2500.

  53. The real question is going to be do you want to live in Manhattan in a studio or sharing a two bedroom or do you want to be in Jersey City with more square footage and a pool, game room, view, etc.

  54. You can’t live in the Bay Area on that either, but people do.

    Sure you can. the median for a single bedroom in San Francisco did drop 1.52 percent month over month. That’s cold comfort at best since the resulting figure is still $3,253/month. That’s almost exactly 30% of gross of the developer starting salary.

  55. This may shock you, but most techie types are boring nerdly people who either have families or aspire to having families. They don’t last long splitting an overpriced Manhattan apartment with roommates. Seattle is a very different city because it is low density compared to NYC, and so it is easy to commute from an area with houses or larger apartments. The NYC tech industry has tended to be concentrated IN Manhattan, with lots of workers coming in from NJ and Westchester via NJ Transit or Metro North. NYC is weird in that transit is overly Manhattan focused, so it is easy to get to Manhattan from Westchester, but really hard to get from Westchester to Queens or Brooklyn, or God forbid, Staten Island.

    I read further and see that part of the deal may hinge on the Port Authority adding an LIRR or Amtrak station there. Hmmm… See that was the advantage of Newark (besides the far better optics ) – it already is a major rail hub. It is served by PATH (subway from Manhattan), NJ Transit, and is a major Amtrak stop. It is way easier to get to Newark airport from Newark than to get to LGA from anywhere in NYC. And Newark is also easily car-accessible, which Long Island City is not.

    Oy, I do not look forwards to the gridlock on the bridges to Queens if this happens. It is already becoming unbearable…

  56. This may shock you, but most techie types are boring nerdly people who either have families or aspire to having families.

    Lol – what is the average age of first birth in that cohort?

  57. Also a lot of tech people are guys who would have, 20 years ago, gone into finance. They aren’t the same group you graduated with a quarter century ago.

  58. You can definitely live in Manhattan on $125k. If you’re single you can get a studio or small one-bedroom in a safe area. Or you can get a roommate. If you’re married you can more easily afford it. And a train commute from lower Brooklyn, Jersey City, or lower Westchester is under an hour. Plus there are many new high rise apartments in LIC that are affordable and probably walkable. Whether those rents will soar if Amazon comes in is another story.

  59. Scarlett,

    I think the “you can’t live on twice the median income” line has to be right up there as a totebag classic.

  60. Rhett, I educate the tech guys. I know what they are like. They are nothing like finance types.

  61. I am teaching a grad class right now. Most of the students are working people in tech. I have 20 men and 2 women. They are mostly of Asian or Russian or middle eastern background, and talk about their kids a lot.

  62. Rhett, I educate the tech guys.

    From your complaints, they don’t seem like those that have a chance of getting a job at Amazon for $125k to start.

  63. I also love Election Day and bringing my kids to vote. It is a great opportunity to show them how important our freedoms are and be proud to be an American. My polling location is at my kids’ school. This morning we walked in and stood in line for 5 minutes or so. Typically there isn’t a line for nonpresidental elections. My kids helped color in the ovals as I explained to my 1st grader what each vote was for. They’ve seen plenty of ads, so they recognized the names. Normally I vote for who I think is best for the position regardless of party affiliation. This time it meant that I didn’t vote for a male republican. My kids will be voting today at school – they have a choice between pajama day, crazy hat day, and something else that I can’t remember.

    I’ll be watching the results (we have some big races here), but first it is opening night for NCAA basketball!

  64. Seattle is a very different city because it is low density compared to NYC, and so it is easy to commute from an area with houses or larger apartments.

    Easy is in the eye of the beholder. Most people in the entire west of the Mississippi do not consider Seattle to be a city of “easy” commutes. It’s not NYC, but nothing else is. https://www.seattlepi.com/local/transportation/article/Seattle-transit-riders-How-long-how-far-and-12215781.php

    NYC is weird in that transit is overly Manhattan focused, so it is easy to get to Manhattan from Westchester, but really hard to get from Westchester to Queens or Brooklyn, or God forbid, Staten Island.

    The exceptionalism is ridiculous. Nearly all transit systems are spoke and hub. Easy to get to hub, hard to get to periphery.

  65. I voted weeks ago. While my preference is to go to a polling station, that is no longer an option. There are no more polling stations in my precinct. My overriding concern this election is for school board, and I wanted to be sure that my ballot reached the polling station on time and that it didn’t get lost in my house, so I voted early. Which meant that anything that happened after I mailed the ballot didn’t affect my decisions. I don’t like this system. I want to be able to vote on election day. I like wearing my “I voted” sticker. I like showing my kids that it important to vote even if it is inconvenient.

  66. Why did they get rid of the polling station? I think that all possible options should be made available to vote – in person early, in person on election day, mail-in ballot. Limiting ways to vote seems restricting.

  67. I voted last weekend at the library. I have to say the line contained the most prudent and responsible looking agglomeration of people I’ve ever been associated with. Like totebaggery dialed up to 11.

  68. This story is from last year.

    Life in Long Island City, the Country’s Fastest-Growing Neighborhood

    Long Island City, with its seven lines, one stop out of Manhattan, became an obvious focal point for a growing city — even if the results aren’t exactly what Jane Jacobs had in mind.

    Since 2010, more than 12,000 apartments have been built there, with over 9,000 more on the way. That’s more than in any other neighborhood in any other city in the country, more than in downtown Los Angeles (the runner-up) or in any area of booming Brooklyn.
    http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/09/nyc-real-estate-living-in-long-island-city.html

  69. “The exceptionalism is ridiculous. Nearly all transit systems are spoke and hub. Easy to get to hub, hard to get to periphery.”

    Not sure why you see this as exceptionalism or ridiculous. And it isn’t exceptionalism to say that Seattle and New York City are pretty different. Because they are. I have been in Seattle several times in the last few years, so I see how it has changed from my youth – but it is still a much smaller city than NYC. The Seattle metro area is pushing 4 million (and yes, I know it is growing) whereas the NYC metro area is around 20 million (at least according to Wikipedia). And despite having been stuck in some killer traffic jams while there, I would still say it is easier to get around by car than in NYC.

    One feature that is shared by both Seattle and NYC is a geography that does not lend itself to hub and spoke, Unlike Atlanta, say, or Denver, Seattle and NYC are cities perched on islands and peninsulas, knitted together by bridges. We have a lot of mass transit, all of which whisks people in from outer regions and even other states, into a few transit hubs in Manhattan. I know that is a problem in places like Atlanta too, but you can get around Atlanta by car without having to cross a chokepoint bridge or tunnel. That is the problem here – you have to cross water too many times to get from A to B. And the bridges were not designed to accommodate mass transit, so you end up having to use a car. We just made that mistake again when they put in the new Tappan Zee bridge. There was a lot of discussion about putting in rapid transit bus lanes, but in the end they didn’t do it.
    Seattle is really just starting to develop its mass transit system so perhaps they won’t make the mistakes that NYC has made.

    Sorry, but I am tired of the phrase “exceptionalism”. It is kind of like “bicoastal elite”, a phrase that gets hurled at people in Seattle and NYC alike. It just shuts down discussion.

  70. Pittsburgh has similar geographic challenges to NYC, with rivers and hilly neighborhoods all requiring bridges to cross. And DC is a classic hub and spoke transit system, with a river and considerably fewer bridge options that limit one’s ability to work in one suburb and live in another.

  71. Mooshi, I was going to say the same thing as Ada, but without using the word “exceptionalism.” In every city in the U.S. that I am familiar with, mass transit is primarily designed to get people from the outlying areas to the central business area, whether it’s trains or buses. The NYC area is not unique in this regard.

    One feature that is shared by both Seattle and NYC is a geography that does not lend itself to hub and spoke, Unlike Atlanta, say, or Denver, Seattle and NYC are cities perched on islands and peninsulas, knitted together by bridges. We have a lot of mass transit, all of which whisks people in from outer regions and even other states, into a few transit hubs in Manhattan.

    This seems to be contradictory – you say NYC is not conducive to a hub and spoke system, then you say he mass transit brings everyone into the hubs. It’s a total hub and spoke system. As you said, if you work in the outer boroughs or the suburbs, it’s very difficult to commute by public transit. It’s the same thing in other cities.

  72. On the Denver ballot, we had to vote for an RTD (Regional Transit District) member. One of the candidates (for whom I voted) argued that we need to rethink the hub-and-spoke system and make more of an effort to get people in the periphery from one place to another.

  73. I predict that Amazon will increase property values all over Queens, especially in neighborhoods like Jackson Heights and Forest Hills, which are just a couple of subway stops away. There are lots of great neighborhoods in Queens for techies to choose from which are still relatively undiscovered. No need to go to Manhattan or New Jersey, though I agree that Manhattan is affordable for those who choose it. Lots of young professionals live in Manhattan without finance-level compensation. They rent small apartments or share with roommates until they are ready to move in with a spouse or significant other. Once kids are in the picture, affordability will become a challenge for some of these folks. At that point, many will move to Queens or Long Island.

    I’m excited LIC got chosen. I didn’t even know it was in the running!

  74. A few years ago around here new bus routes were added to carry people from one suburb to another, specifically to move people from the corner suburbs to other corners. After a few months they stopped the routes because of lack of interest. It was too expensive to run for too few people to benefit. Its almost like a carpool uber/lyft is a better bet. Maybe subsidized by local transit?

  75. People hate buses. They’ll take trains, but not buses. I don’t understand it. DH will take the train, or light rail, but he won’t take the bus. I take the bus! Bus prejudice is annoying.

  76. I’ll be watching results tonight to see if Steve King (IA) gets re-elected. He is my in-laws representative. He is also who I think of when I think of small-town values. I think King will win.

  77. Bus prejudice is annoying.

    Buses make me carsick, trains don’t. I would never take a bus, but I would take a train or light rail.

  78. That’s fair, Cassandra. But most people don’t like buses because they’re déclassé.

  79. How do Steve King’s voters rationalize voting for an open white nationalist? Do they openly celebrate his white nationalism, or do they pretend he really isn’t one in spite of all the evidence?

  80. I know that my in-laws voted for him initially because they helped with my BIL with some legal issues (at least that’s what I think is the reason but I don’t know the details on what happened with all of that and never want to know). I also think they have been in denial about how racist he really is. I went off a few years ago when MIL and FIL were visiting us when King made the comment about illegal immigrants and their calves like cantaloupes. They sat their mutely and didn’t say anything, so I suspect they were still voting for him. However, FIL really can’t stand Trump, so I think they may switch and vote for Democrats.

    There isn’t any diversity in town. DH said there was one black student in his school from when he was in K-12, and the student moved away after a year or two. It is a very rural and white and church-going population. DH says his Facebook feed from high school classmates are pretty conservative.

    I would like to believe that they think King is joking and not really a racist, but perhaps they agree with him or don’t care that he says racist stuff.

  81. Crosstown and feeder busses connect minority neighborhoods with each other and with the rail system if there is one. That is what makes them déclassé.

  82. RMS – I’m with you on the bus issue. One of my biggest peeves in Seattle is the money that has been invested in street cars. Street cars to me are the worst of both worlds. They run on a fixed track – so more expensive to install – and if there’s an accident or road blockage, they can’t detour. But unlike trains, they go in the regular right of way with all the other traffic.

    I’m good with buses (less expensive, more flexible – but get stuck in traffic). I’m good with trains (more expensive, less flexible – but don’t get stuck in traffic). I loathe street cars. But one of their apparent selling points is that some people will take a street car who won’t take a bus.

  83. “But most people don’t like buses because they’re déclassé.”

    Around here people seem to treat buses like subways, as just another way to get around. However, growing up buses were for maids and other working class folks who couldn’t afford cars. Stacey Abrams has an inspiring story that touches on this.

  84. During all of the time we lived in the DC area, I don’t think that I ever took a Metro bus anywhere. As a transit option, they seemed the worst of all worlds — they get stuck in traffic, the bus stops expose riders to weather and crime hazards in a way that most Metro subway stops do not, and BITD the whole fare system was more complicated on buses than on the subway. I think that you actually needed cash. And though people could stand on the subway and still read their book or paper, that is pretty hard on a bus.

    The trams we have taken in places like Rome and Melbourne were terrific though. Not sure if that is what SSM means by “streetcars,” but they had their own track in the middle of the road and so were not affected by traffic.

  85. WCE or Ivy, or anyone else with Iowa ties Dash I see that Steve King has barred the Des Moines register from his election night gathering because they are a leftist rag. I am unfamiliar with Iowa news sources. Would you agree that it is a leftist news organization, or is this just punishment for organizations that post unfab content?

  86. I guess I should’ve reloaded the page before I posted. I see that Steve King has already been discussed

  87. @RMS – I love/am horrified by that pamphlet. (You may see that I stole it.)

    I take the bus somewhat regularly. I don’t mind taking the bus – the worst part is that it gets stuck in traffic. But there is DEFINITELY a bus stigma compared to the trains. One time DH & I were in MSP for a wedding about 10 years ago. We were staying in downtown St Paul and took the bus to Minneapolis to meet other friends because we didn’t want to drive or take a cab. They were absolutely horrified and astounded that we would take a BUS from St Paul to Minneapolis. Now there is a very heavily traveled light rail line along that same route that we ALL took last time I was there.

    My company has a large office in LIC. In fact, I think my last company did too. Both are shared services centers with lots of back-office workers. Payroll processing and stuff like that. Most of the people I interact with there commute from suburbs. Our client-facing offices are in Midtown and SoHo. Where is the most “prime” office real estate in NYC anyway? Midtown? I have no idea.

    Do people not cram into tiny apartments in NYC like they did In My Day?? 20-somethings lived on a lot less than the equivalent of $125K and still do in NYC (including the fashionable areas), don’t they?

  88. Ivy,
    DS lives in Chicago and often takes the bus. But largely because there is a convenient and efficient line with stops near his apartment and workplace. And he is tall strong young man who doesn’t think much about standing at bus stops when it’s dark.
    Also a millennial thing — he doesn’t have or need a car, and therefore did not bother to get a new driver’s license when he moved. It works for air travel and liquor purchases, but doesn’t allow him to vote. I suspect that he is not alone in this regard.

  89. @Becky – I think the Register leans a bit left – they typically endorse Democrats for President for example. But it’s not the NY Times or Washington Post!!

    It will be interesting to see if King actually loses. I doubt it – that part of the state is so conservative, but the Dem candidate has really been working hard to make connections so there’s a chance. My parents district next door in the much more purple area of NE Iowa looks like it will flap back to blue with this election though. That one has gone back & forth a lot over the years. There’s a chance Iowa will elect another Democratic governor too. I’m not sure that is all Trump backlash though – there are state issues with some backlash as well. Many of my friends/family members were pretty worked up about some state-level changes that happened after the Republicans took control of the state legislature and governorship in 2016 too. I think there is also the potential for some local backlash too. That said, I am often surprised by some of the people who are vocally fed up with Trump from my Iowa crowd. Not a lot of vocal support from those I “know” and a lot of those same people did NOT like Hillary.

  90. @Scarlett – There are some areas that are much better served by buses than trains, so that makes perfect sense.

  91. I grew up riding busses in DC and also later in Boston. I chose a home on a bus line. My girls took a déclassé crosstown bus to their tony private school, while the rich girls who took public transit rode the “trolley”. I tentatively plan to take some everyday public busses to get around Oahu later this month on the $5 a day pass. I took busses when I visited my daughter who used to live in Ivy’s general area. I routinely took the bus from Santa Cruz to and from SJC.

  92. I guess what I am agreeing with is that there is a sizable population of people who don’t mind taking train transit, but turn their nose up at buses. I know/am friends with plenty of them. Ask them to take the train, and they are fine, but they HATE taking the bus.

  93. ““But most people don’t like buses because they’re déclassé.””

    I recall seeing the opera crowd from the East side taking the crosstown bus to the West side to get to Lincoln Center and Carnegie Hall. DH used to take the crosstown bus through Central Park to visit me when we were just dating. He was East side, I was West. Ah, fond memories.

  94. Yes Stacey Abrams is amazing and I am so, so worried/convinced we are going to end up with crazy Kemp. Georgia has had it good for so long with its governors.

  95. I should clarify my previous comment. In the city people don’t typically look down on buses but they do in the suburbs.

  96. I routinely took the bus from Santa Cruz to and from SJC.

    Wait, really? I haven’t tried that because it seems like such a hassle. You have to get off the plane at SJC, take a bus to Caltrain, take Caltrain to the Diridon station, and then take the #17 over the hill to Santa Cruz. I haven’t had the guts to try it.

  97. I also don’t like buses bc of car sickness. I find they tend to have poor ventilation too so you’re stuck smelling the fumes. (Also I am sensitive to smells in general) Here I find that the bus routes are much less publicized – there are people who take the express bus to Boston, etc., but where/when it stops is not as easy to find as the T map and routes IMO.

  98. I can’t remember the last time i took a bus. My kids take it sometime from school to the mall but i have no idea how to do it.

    RE: Amazon – poor Crystal City and everyone around there. The traffic is already a disaster there. So glad they aren’t going to be by me.

  99. I thought a big reason people like trains a lot more than buses is that they are less often off schedule.

  100. “I am often surprised by some of the people who are vocally fed up with Trump from my Iowa crowd. Not a lot of vocal support from those I “know” and a lot of those same people did NOT like Hillary.”

    Consistent with my theory that many Trump votes were actually votes against HRC.

  101. When I used to commute to Boston from my town (which could probably be called an exurb — way too far away to be a suburb), I used to take the bus rather than the commuter train. (Both the bus line and the train have stops in my town.) The buses were really nice coach buses. They were comfortable, quiet, and clean. The commuter rail, by contrast, was loud, dirty, and shabby. I think there are quite a few communities that are pretty far outside of Boston, but still within commuting distance, that are well served by these types of bus lines. There is no stigma at all in riding them — they are packed with professional types.

  102. The buses were really nice coach buses. They were comfortable, quiet, and clean.

    I did as well when I worked in the city over summer break in college. The seats were super comfortable recliners and you could get another hour of sleep on the way.

    As for city busses I think the only time I’ve taken one is when they have them running between T stops due to maintenance or whatever.

  103. I thought of Mooshi immediately when I saw Long Island City under consideration with Amazon. I visited Queens and Flushing almost twenty years ago and found it to be very congested, not sure where the space they are talking about is.
    The competition is more like “regional hub” instead of being a true HQ2 contest.
    Here South Carolina is attracting a lot of jobs and the area along the border with N.C. has developed rapidly. The traffic volume has jumped.
    On public transportation – haven’t used much, since I moved here. The building especially of apartments and townhouses continues unabated but public transportation hasn’t caught up. The apartments on existing bus lines and light rail are very popular.
    The light rail is scheduled to be expanded but that takes ten years or so just for one line extension.

  104. I voted last weekend at the library. I have to say the line contained the most prudent and responsible looking agglomeration of people I’ve ever been associated with. Like totebaggery dialed up to 11.

    Love the description. I received absentee ballot form which I filled and sent back. I didn’t see the birth date box but they processed it promptly, sent me a new form. That was accepted, I got my ballot and voted by mail. I had to put a stamp and get two witness signatures – a hoop too much I thought.

  105. We were so inundated with political junk mail this election plus party workers coming around handing out more flyers. Such a waste of donor money that I recycled. Not looking forward to the 2020 elections.

  106. Ha – bad writing for my previous post. I put the political mail in the recycle bin, donor money was wasted, not recycled !

  107. My commuter rail experience in Boston got worse each year. In the end I was just glad to not have a commuter rail commute. My T experience OTOH was always good.

  108. In New York Democrats will now control the Senate, Assembly and governor’s office come January. One comment I saw was that now Gov. Cuomo will have to start governing like a Democrat. This will be interesting as he is a contender for the upcoming presidential race.

    Speaking of presidential race, O’Rourke apparently can raise the money, but that may not be enough.

  109. This will be interesting as he is a contender for the upcoming presidential race.

    He thinks he can win ? From afar I don’t think I have a favorable impression of him.

  110. Houston — Sorry to hear about Beto. And that you’re stuck with six more years of Ted C.

  111. The Santa Cruz rent control and “just cause eviction” measure went down in flames. Yay for millennial students being too lazy to vote!

  112. Ugh – Steve King, the racist, won. DH says he never needs to go back to his hometown again. My experience with small towns is DH’s hometown and it is what I think of when I hear people praise small town values. Small town values where King wins 60-40.

    I’m excited about voting laws passing in Michigan and Florida. I wouldn’t be surprised if this will have a serious impact in 2020 for Florida – 1.4 million new voters.

  113. The Santa Cruz rent control and “just cause eviction” measure went down in flames. Yay for millennial students being too lazy to vote!

    Glad to hear that RMS ! Affordable housing is still a problem in high cost areas but rent control gives rise to a different set of problems and is not the solution.

  114. NOB: Thank you for your sympathy. I am not sad today. I think we came really close, which is a victory in itself. That said, I still hate Ted Cruz

  115. I’m still feeling very patriotic this morning. Driving into work I thought about how it is pretty amazing how our elections work in that parties change hands without violence.

  116. So who is voting for Ted Cruz, then? Is it a hold-your-nose-and-vote type of deal similar to how many here felt in 2016?

  117. So I am excited this morning because I actually have personal connections to two candidates (one school board, one a former client’s wife), and they both won! That has never happened before. We also received a personal visit from one of the candidates for state delegate, which is also a first; I think as our part of the county becomes wealthier, the Dems are no longer taking our votes for granted to the same degree.

    Our schools are closed on election day, because they remain polling places, so I worked at home and ran some errands while DS played Call of Duty and wrote crappy thank-you notes and DD played with friends instead of doing the college applications she said she would, then got pizza for dinner from the local place, which was running a fundraiser for one of DD’s friends. So, you know, normal day all around in suburbia. ;-)

  118. And Sessions is out (forced to resign per NYT & WSJ)

    What does it mean for the Mueller investigation?

  119. I am happy that Washington State easily passed a gun safety initiative. I hope this leads to a trend of gun safety initiatives in other states! It raises the minimum age to buy a semi-automatic rifle to 21, requires an enhanced background check, a training course, and a wait of 10 business days after purchase (these are all just for semi-automatic purchases). It also requires safe storage of all guns. Of course the NRA has already said they will sue to block the initiative.

  120. Yeah, I’d vote for preet too.
    But he’s ineligible. Not a natural born citizen — India. Natutalized in 1980.

  121. There was speculation in the home country press that Preet would run for office. At that time his office was responsible for the conviction of people with home country ties. There was a feeling that he was targeting those of his own ethnic background just to show that he was impartial.

  122. Today’s exercise in Second Amendment rights hosted by Thousand Oaks, CA. Lots of Pepperdine students killed.

  123. Rhode — hey, at least it passed! I think a number of states have leftover weird laws on the books.

  124. Oh they do. RI needs a Constitutional Convention to change them, so we will always have those laws. I always try to imagine what people will say in 100 years when they read those laws…

  125. And white, probably, so there won’t be any calls for building a wall, or deporting Muslims, or building a thousand new prisons. White male shooters just get thoughts and prayers.

  126. I don’t actually advocate for stricter gun control laws. I do advocate for less racism. Black guys are criminal thugs who should be imprisoned for life. Muslims are religious terrorists who should be deported/destroyed. White guys are mentally ill and need our love and support.

  127. The white male perpetrators of the recent mass shootings are either dead, awaiting trial, or in prison. Aren’t they?

  128. Yes, but there’s no outcry that we should spend $150 billion to destroy the entire population of white males. And everyone instantly says “mental illness” instead of “evil”.

  129. If the shooter du jour had been black, Latino, or Muslim, our pres would have been railing about it, spewing racism from every screen to deflect attention from Tuesday’s losses and his latest attempt to obstruct justice. Instead . . . barely a peep. I guess deranged white guys just don’t inspire the same fear as a destitute band of Latinos seeking asylum. At least not for his aging, uneducated base of white people.

  130. If the shooter had shouted Allahu Ackbar as he massacred the victims, the attack would rightly have been treated by most people as a terrorism attack, and Trump may well have railed about national security issues, whether or not the shooter was an American citizen.

    Not sure that the race of a mass shooter is really a relevant data point. But then non-terrorist mass shootings are essentially state criminal matters. Obama responded to these crimes with virtually automatic calls for “common-sense gun control measures.” Trump usually has little to say, and that’s probably for the better.

  131. He had plenty to say after the Orlando shooting. Muslim-American shooter. And after the black ex-Marine shot two cops in Dallas. This guy shot a cop today. No comment from pres. A white guy shot two cops in South Carolina a couple weeks ago. No comment from the pres. on that either. I guess Blue Lives only matter when the shooter is black.

    I agree that we are all better off when he stays quiet after these incidents. He lacks empathy and usually only makes matters worse. And he has no intention of doing anything to curb gun violence, so what would be the point?

  132. 68% of Arkansas voters voting to raise the minimum wage to be the highest, relative to the cost of living, in country is interesting.

    I guess it goes to show how many “conservatives” are mostly cultural conservatives rather then bring primarily “the business of America is business” type conservatives.

  133. I was in Arkansas before the election. The Republican ads were all Guns & God with a little bit of MS13 thrown in. (Is there a single member of MS13 in Arkansas?) And lots of talk of “better schools” and “protecting health care”. Not a lot of talk of tax cuts. Lots & lots of guns. The Attorney General is a “Gun-totin’ Christian Momma”.

    HUGE contrast to the Republican commercials we had running here which pretty much never mention guns or God at all.

  134. The bigger local issue if the ads were to believed was expansion on gambling in AR too. “Stop sending our gambling money to a Mississippi and use it for better schools”. That campaign was obviously well funded. I wonder if the voters who were pro gambling were also pro higher minimum wage?

  135. The Dallas shooter actually killed five police officers, and was explicitly targeting white cops in a hate crime that was motivated by rhetoric from Black Lives Matter. The Orlando shooter was a Islamic jihadist terrorist attack, notwithstanding initial efforts by President Obama and others on the left to portray it as an anti-gay hate crime. And Trump was not President during either of those attacks. Obama oozed empathy, but his endless blather about “common-sense gun control” didn’t actually move the needle on gun violence either. It’s not really fair or accurate to claim that Trump “has no intention of doing anything to curb gun violence” unless you can point to an effective proposal put before the President that he has rejected.

    No rational person wants to see more mass shootings, but the truth is that the President, no matter who that person is or how articulate and nuanced his reactions are, can’t actually do much about the root causes of these killings. Like it or not, untreated mental illness and inadequate attention by local authorities to red flags are right up there. Every single gun-control measure that advocates demand is already in place in California.

  136. Since you see mental illness as a root cause, would you support bun control measures that effectively keep any guns out of the hands of the mentally ill? I have seen some conservative support for measures that would allow local authorities to go and remove guns from people who have been shown to have serious mental issues. Would you be on board with that?

  137. but the truth is that the President, no matter who that person is or how articulate and nuanced his reactions are, can’t actually do much about the root causes of these killings. Like it or not, untreated mental illness

    Under almost any scenario mental health treatment of these people would be funded by Medicaid. The President can choose to expend political capital on Capitol Hill advocating for increased funding and using those funds to encourage states to make appropriate changes to their laws and mental health infrastructure.

  138. MM I would totally be on board with preventing people who shouldn’t have guns from obtaining or keeping them. The problem with mental health treatment is that many people who need treatment don’t seek it out, even if it’s “free.” The Thousand Oaks shooter was a military vet who apparently never even used his health care card.

    One common factor in many of the recent mass shootings is the absence of a father. Not blaming the moms, who will have lifelong suffering, but if family and interpersonal dysfunctions are also at the root of these massacres, it is hard to see how public policy can effectively address it.

  139. One common factor in many of the recent mass shootings is the absence of a father.

    Given the high heritability of mental illness what do you think the chances are that the dad isn’t around due some of the same mental instability inherited by the son?

    The problem with mental health treatment is that many people who need treatment don’t seek it out, even if it’s “free.”

    Which brings us back to re-institutionalization as a solution to both this and the homeless problem.

    A neighbor said Long’s mother “lived in fear” of what her son might do, saying when police were called to the house earlier this year “it took them about a half a day to get him out of the house.”
    Neighbor Richard Berge said Long’s mother told him she was concerned about her son, though not worried about her own safety, and that “she was … kind of beside herself, she didn’t know what to do because he wouldn’t get help.”

    He should have been forced into treatment at that point.

  140. He should have been forced into treatment at that point.

    Unfortunately, it’s not like tuberculosis where you can literally hold people captive and treat them if you want to. And PTSD doesn’t have any good, reliable treatment anyway.

  141. Rhett, we agree on much of this.
    Ordinarily, the problem I hear from parents of mentally ill young adults is that (1) The man (it’s always a man) responds well to medication and treatment for months, and then (2) decides that he is fine now and doesn’t need treatment, so discontinues the meds and (3) the parents are unable to persuade him to stay on the meds. Often, the son is no longer living with his parents and so they have no way to “force” him into treatment. These guys can’t get or keep a job, and evidently are living on disability payments.
    I have one friend whose son, in his mid-30’s, has been hospitalized in a state facility for months. He had been arrested for something or other before that point, and his mom told me that she cried with relief when she got the call, because she knew he wasn’t dead, and that he would be forced to enter the hospital in connection with that arrest. The parents have plenty of resources, and even bought the son a modest home in our community so that he would have a safe place to live, but when he went off his meds (in large part because it’s otherwise hard to find a girlfriend), their hands were tied. He left the house and disappeared for months and they had no idea where he was.

  142. Unfortunately, it’s not like tuberculosis where you can literally hold people captive and treat them if you want to.

    We did it for decades and as far as I know the changes to stop it were legislative.

  143. You can’t fix them, though.

    You can in many cases, just not permanently. The question is then about ensuring treatment compliance on either an inpatient or outpatient setting.

  144. “We did it for decades and as far as I know the changes to stop it were legislative.”

    Pretty sure there were some lawsuits about the unconstitutionality of forced institutionalization that put some limits on when it’s allowed.

  145. Pretty sure there were some lawsuits about the unconstitutionality of forced institutionalization that put some limits on when it’s allowed.

    You’re right. But it looks like it was mostly a question of additional procedural safeguards and the end of institutionalization was a legislative issue. Just look at the rulings such as O’Connor v. Donaldson:

    The United States Supreme Court ruled that a state cannot constitutionally confine a non-dangerous individual who is capable of surviving safely in freedom by themselves or with the help of willing and responsible family members or friends.

    Most of the homeless would fail to meet the definition of “safely in freedom” at least by my definition. It also says non-dangerous individuals. Both the FL and CA shooters had numerous interactions with law enforcement.

  146. While I deplore the wholesale dumping of the mentally ill onto the streets, as Reagan did in the 60s in California, psychiatric institutionalization wound up hitting women and minorities harder than white guys. And no, they didn’t get better. They were just doped up to the gills.

  147. They were just doped up to the gills.

    And having them back in the community taking their meds would be great. We just need to find a way to make sure they take their meds.

  148. More accurately, the federal courts, including the 9th Circuit, enjoined the enforcement of the 2016 law pending the outcome of the litigation. That is how the legal system works.

    Even if the lawsuit ultimately fails and the measure becomes law, it will require those who were grandfathered in and currently possess a targeted magazine to turn it in or disable it. Very difficult, if not impossible, to enforce such a provision, and those who comply will probably not be the sort of gun owners inclined to engage in mass shootings. If one is looking for “common-sense” gun control measures that will actually reduce mass shootings, this is not one of them. Far better IMO to focus on the flaws in the system that cleared this shooter to keep his guns after his encounter with the police at his home.

  149. He was posting on social media DURING the attack! A Facebook post published to his account around the time of the attack said, “I hope people call me insane… (laughing emojis).. wouldn’t that just be a big ball of irony? Yeah.. I’m insane, but the only thing you people do after these shootings is ‘hopes and prayers’.. or ‘keep you in my thoughts’… every time… and wonder why these keep happening…,” a spokeswoman for the company confirmed.

    WTF, dude?

  150. Rhett, that article is infuriating. The teacher is too young and pretty to be taken seriously? Oh and of course we can’t discipline boys who assault women because it would “ruin their lives”. Well plenty of lives are ruined now, aren’t they, you fucking patriarchal bastards?

  151. Democrats Plan to Pursue Most Aggressive Gun-Control Legislation in Decades
    Focus spurred by an incoming class of lawmakers with ‘F’ NRA ratings who campaigned on the issue

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/democrats-plan-to-pursue-most-aggressive-gun-control-legislation-in-decades-1541791440?mod=trending_now_2

    But it’ll get nowhere because it needs Senate approval, right?

    Michelle Obama says she “felt like I failed” when she had her miscarriages. I find this interesting, particularly coming from her.
    http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/la-et-mn-michelle-obama-gabrielle-union-chrissy-teigen-infertility-20181109-story.html

  152. We have a new red flag law where someone close to a person can petition for guns to be removed from a person. There was a red flag warrant served the other day where the police went to the home at 5 am. The person whose guns were about to be removed answered the door with his gun. The man saw it was the police, put the gun down, then when the office tried to take it, he picked it back up and he fired a shot (it seem like that might have been unintentional, but I don’t know). The officer then shot and killed the guy.

    From my perspective, the law worked and the guy obviously had issues and shouldn’t have had guns (the protection order had something to do with him threatening to shoot a family member). The guns rights comments on FB are along the lines of “you better believe I would answer a knock on the door at 5 am with my gun” and “the law doesn’t work since the guy was killed”. The other side of the comments are “if you answer the door with a gun and it is the police, you are going to get shot”. He was an older white guy, so I’m guessing he didn’t think he would be shot, but I’m not sure what he thought was going to happen.

    I hope that result doesn’t happen again, but I support these types of laws. The issue I see is if you are taking guns away from mentally unstable people, how are they going to react? There is no mechanism to provide any follow up mental health evaluation, nor does it seem that there are enough resources to do this in a proper way.

  153. The guns rights comments on FB are along the lines of “you better believe I would answer a knock on the door at 5 am with my gun” and “the law doesn’t work since the guy was killed”

    What are the chances that if we did a search of his comments about an AA’s interaction with the cops he’d say, “He should have just done what the cops asked?”

  154. “The issue I see is if you are taking guns away from mentally unstable people, how are they going to react? There is no mechanism to provide any follow up mental health evaluation, nor does it seem that there are enough resources to do this in a proper way.”

    Good point, but it’s obviously better for police to proactively take guns away from unstable people than not to take them and risk a horrible tragedy. With a followup hearing at which the person can petition to recover the guns (say, because it’s his crazy dad with the same first and last name who needs to have the guns removed). And then you would need some kind of continuing monitoring to be sure he doesn’t try to replace them.

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