Open thread

Discuss whatever is on your mind.

Psst … send  in some posts.


285 thoughts on “Open thread

  1. Does anyone know of someone who has a good idea of what Trump is going to do policy wise? I’m looking all over and no one knows anything. On the left they are hysterical. On the right they think Trump = Pence/Ryan. I don’t think that’s the case as Trump is a populist first and foremost and not an ideological conservative.

  2. @Rhett, No.

    Last night I heard one of the election commenators say (paraphrased) Trump has said out loud what many have thought / believed, but didn’t say out loud because they didn’t want to be shamed a politically incorrect. If Trump wins, it gives them the permission to vocalize and/or act these. Today I am seeing that increased vocalization on FB as well as increased fear by the people at the receiving end of these comments.

  3. Paul Ryan seems genuinely surprised. I don’t think they have any idea what’s going to happen either.

  4. The left really is hysterical – I’m seeing a lot of “How am I going to look my children in the eye?” and “I am crying and embarrassed to be an American for the first time in my life” posts. I don’t see any pro-Trump stuff on my FB feed. It’s like the polls – his supporters are quiet because you can’t be known as a Trump supporter.

  5. I have to believe Trump will move ahead with this.

    Trump Can Kill Obamacare With Or Without Help From Congress

    “It’s a challenge for a Trump presidency,” says Jack Hoadley, a research professor at Georgetown University’s Health Policy Institute. “To get a true repeal and replace through, he needs 60 votes in the Senate.” That’s the minimum number of votes needed to block Senate action through filibuster.

    “Repeal of the law is absolutely going to come up, and the only potential defense against that would be a Democratic filibuster — if Republicans even allow a filibuster,” says Austin Frakt, a health economist who runs the blog The Incidental Economist.

    But even if Trump can’t repeal the Affordable Care Act in its entirety…. “He could change the details of how the marketplaces work,” Hoadley says. “It’s all worked out through regulation. You could just suspend the regulations.”

  6. I’m still seeing stuff like this (and worse) from my lefty FB friends.

    You can sugar coat it any way you want, but if you voted for Trump you are as bigoted as he is.

  7. I have tons of pro-Trump stuff on my Facebook feed! All of the hysterical stuff on my feed is coming from minorities and people who rely on Obamacare. They have a very palpable sense of fear.

  8. CofC,

    As we allow the free market to provide insurance coverage opportunities to companies and individuals, we must also make sure that no one slips through the cracks simply because they cannot afford insurance.

    What does that mean in terms of policy? He’s been far more insistent than most Republicans that everyone has to be covered.

  9. Austin – it must be because most of my FB friends that are posting are from Massachusetts. Atlanta friends are quiet. I suspect most voted for Trump but are not going to admit it. My aunt that teaches in Lexington, MA is insisting that the election was rigged. My sister just keeps sending me hysterical opinion pieces from the NY Times and New Yorker and I’ve seen several people declare they are actually not moving to Canada but are going to stay and “fight for our democracy”. I’m now waiting for the calls for the electoral college system to be disbanded.

  10. Not all details about Trump’s health care reforms are provided (probably intentional), but I get a message of less mandates. There are certainly ways other than Obamacare to provide a safety net for the poor. I suspect he’ll want to keep insurance affordable even for those with pre-existing conditions. Also, I think he’ll be willing to negotiate more than Obama ever did.

  11. Did anyone else caution their kids not to engage in any talk about the election today?

    No. In fact my 17yo was looking forward to his first period Governmant & Law class where this would be discussed!

  12. I think several people have expressed here a preference for a legislative and executive mismatch (party wise) to keep things in check – possibly that will still happen if Trump and Congress don’t get along.

    I realized that I don’t follow anyone on Instagram who outwardly supported Trump. I agree that people were quiet if they did not support Hillary, at least in my world.

  13. I need some historical context on the moving to Canada business. Is this because protestors fled there during the Vietnam war ?
    And you would have to actually immigrate there wouldn’t you ? Do they permit dual citizenship?

  14. CofC,

    I agree. Would you also agree that he’s a populist and will do what’s popular unbound by an ideological framework?

  15. Trump will not do what Ryan wants. His election is a repudiation of Ryan, and they both know it. The Republicans have been fundamentally changed by this election. Republican Senate and House members understand now where their base is, and will not go against it.

  16. “Would you also agree that he’s a populist and will do what’s popular unbound by an ideological framework?”

    I agree with this. He also doesn’t owe too many political favors and already has more money than he or his descendants will probably ever spend. If he makes good decisions and surrounds himself with good people this could all be fine.

  17. “Based on my Facebook feed, I have an incredibly diverse group of friends”


    “but if you voted for Trump you are as bigoted as he is.”

    That saddens and disgusts me. People need to get out of their bubbles.

  18. Trump will not do what Ryan wants. His election is a repudiation of Ryan, and they both know it.

    Ryan seemed to admit as much. He said that Trump heard a voice no one else heard.

  19. DD is dying for social studies today because her teacher is basically socialist.

    On one of the local radio shows they were having people call in to talk about their thoughts about the election. One woman called in who was a social studies teacher (sounded like elementary or middle school) and she said she is panicked because she has to figure out what she’s going to tell the kids. (Apparently “the people voted for Trump” isn’t acceptable). Then she said she has a bunch of teacher friends who all called in sick today because they are too distraught and don’t want to have to talk about it. My thought is all they are doing is reinforcing the conservative line that teachers are all trying to indoctrinate the kids to be liberals/democrats.

    And I did unfriend someone on FB this morning because of what she posted about the election. I don’t mind people supporting the other candidate – as strongly as I was opposed I could see valid reasons for voting that way. But I thought she went too far in her comments, and she’s just a former coworker so I don’t need to maintain a relationship with her.

  20. “Then she said she has a bunch of teacher friends who all called in sick today because they are too distraught and don’t want to have to talk about it. ”

    I happened to be at our middle school the day after Obama’s first win, and many teachers were clearly celebrating in the halls.

    “Would you also agree that he’s a populist and will do what’s popular unbound by an ideological framework?”

    Yes, which is certainly a concern for many in his party.

  21. Eight years ago, we elected a man with a very thin resume but charismatic appeal to hope and change. People on the right were appalled and convinced that life as they knew it was over. Virginia friends who are avid shooters were unable to buy ammo in the DC area because lots of otherwise sensible DC area adults thought that Obama was going to take away their guns and cleaned out the dealers. These are doctors and lawyers and other professionals, not nutjobs, but one of them visited us for a football game in 2008 he picked up a large order for his friends back home. There were lots of dire predictions, but most of them did not come true, at least with regard to everyday life. I suspect that the same will be true with Trump. Except that the chickens of aggressive executive action will probably come home to roost.

  22. Denver Dad – before the results were in we told our kids that although we may not like whoever gets elected, we do want a peaceful transfer of power and will accept the verdict of the people.
    Then I proceed to mention instances of countries where this has not happened.

  23. Louise, well said. And regardless of who won, you want them to succeed. I don’t understand the people who are saying they hope he fails. I understand the partisanship, but it’s a hell of a lot better for all of us if the president succeeds (however you want to define that).

  24. Market’s up 1%. Sorry, Finn. So between the market being up and Trump winning and whatnot, I’m wondering if punditry as a career might be tanking a little.

  25. Scarlett,

    My fear of populism is that what’s popular is impossible*. Trumps economic policy calls for large increases in defense and infrastructure spending, large tax cuts with no changes to SS and Medicare. Then again, he’s not the emperor. What he’s actually able to do is quite limited. Presumably, congressional deficit hawks will severely curtail his plan.

    * Keynesian would argue that Trumps huge deficits are just the shot in the arm the economy needs. I’m not sold on that idea but it’s at least plausible.

  26. ” If he makes good decisions and surrounds himself with good people this could all be fine.”

    Atlanta – this is a tall order for any person who becomes President. But I agree wholeheartedly – if he realizes that he’s not the smartest person on an issue and seeks out the smartest person on the issue, then we could move forward. Not sure of his willingness to do that though – it’s probably very humbling to a person who’s believed (and been told) that he is the smartest in the room.

    Will Trump or other Senators try to convince Ryan to step down? And who would be a good replacement? (I find this question silly considering how Ryan got into the hot seat to begin with…)

  27. On my facebook page, the Trump people are mostly silent, the Bernie people are saying I told you so, and the Hilary people seem to think the world is coming to an end.

  28. The Trump people are silent? That’s odd.

    I don’t know, do you think Bernie could have won? I think he would have had a hard time getting through the mudslinging of a general election.

  29. I don’t know, do you think Bernie could have won?

    I have no idea, but my biased sample of the people I know had very few people voting FOR either candidate. Most were horrified by the choices and would have happily voted for a sane or non corrupt candidate of either party rather than the options they had. Bernie was both sane and non corrupt, so maybe.

  30. The only reason you think he is sane and uncorrupt is because no one bothered to really do the oppo research on him.

  31. My FB feed is 98% “the world is ending, what have we become, I couldn’t look at my kids this morning.”

    I have been very tempted over the past few weeks to post something on FB to the effect that people who don’t support Hillary are not universally racist/sexist/anti-gay authoritarians who can’t wait to nuke France. Some of us just don’t like what she did to compromise national security and prefer a less powerful federal government than she wants.

    But I never post or like anything political on FB, so I kept my mouth shut.

  32. Rhett, it’s not just populists who promise the impossible. Obama said we could keep our health plans and insure more people and save money. Clinton said we could have lots of new government programs without higher taxes on working families. Most politicians won’t admit that we have to cut back on social security and Medicare. People want services but don’t want to pay for them and politicians who refuse to play that game don’t get elected.

  33. Someone on my FB posted that she was from a very blue area of a blue state, but now lived in a red area. Since she didn’t believe her neighbors were (insert appropriate insult) she wanted to learn where her neighbors were coming from.

    One of the things I like about this site is that it lets us have a chance to learn where our red or blue posters are coming from.

    This was an incredibly divisive election, somehow the country needs to find a way to talk and understand each, because I don’t believe half of the country is (insert appropriate insult) either.

  34. More than anything I am worried about the evangelical element getting emboldened and ready to curb everyone’s basic rights!

  35. A few observations from my internet perusing today:

    1. We seem to buy into the idea that people who choose politics or public service as a career are flawed in some way and that having experience is bad, but we don’t think that people who choose to be doctors, lawyers, accountants, or teachers. In fact, we rarely want the brand new doctor to treat us, teacher to teach our kids, etc., but instead want the experienced person.

    2. We live in a society now where almost nothing you do isn’t recorded in some way so that you can document just about any “flaw” a person has (lied, flip-flopped, got arrested, didn’t pay taxes, etc.). There will no longer be a candidate who is a “good choice” because we judge them on every choice they ever made. I don’t think anyone could withstand the digging done into candidates backgrounds, public and private lives. (A talk show host earlier this week had no opinion on the candidate other than she was on her 5th marriage…apparently any number over 3 makes a candidate unacceptable.)

    3. We seem to believe that another person does things with the intent to “harm” us rather than just doing things because it furthers themselves and the side effect is the “harm” we feel. I hear a lot of FB comments taking an action by someone you don’t know as a personal attack. One example was, “Obama is taking food from my family by making me have health insurance that I don’t need.”

  36. More than anything I am worried about the evangelical element getting emboldened and ready to curb everyone’s basic rights!

    Trump could care less about social issues. I find it hard to believe evangelicals are going to get anything from him.

  37. People want services but don’t want to pay for them and politicians who refuse to play that game don’t get elected.

    You would agree, I assume, that Trumps plans are far more populist in that sense, than anything Clinton, Obama or Ryan were pushing.

  38. “More than anything I am worried about the evangelical element getting emboldened and ready to curb everyone’s basic rights!”

    Yeah I don’t see this either. Trump is certainly not an Evangelical. I think if anything this shows the Republicans they can win without catering to that element.

  39. Most evangelicals don’t seem to be nearly as intent on forcing others to curb their beliefs as are so-called progressives who insist that the Little Sisters of the Poor pay for their employee’s contraceptives, or that public schools allow boys to use the girls locker room, or that colleges evaluate claims of criminal sexual assault using civil burdens of proof.

    Agree with Rhett that Trump isn’t interested in social issues so there is little cause for concern.

  40. Scarlet really? How about the Supreme Court nominations that are now only going to those who believe that they have a right to dictate what a woman is allowed to do with her body? Head in sand approach is what got us here today!

    But for the alt right that is so not comparable to making employers offer birth control pills!!!! – omg! Making companies do what the company does not want!!!

  41. My FB feed has plenty of angst from the left and gloating from the right. I’ve taken a “let’s all take a deep breath” approach.

    I did reach out to my UK friends to commiserate a bit. They’re still grappling with their surprise at Brexit and the conservatives’ sudden abandonment of the “leave” effort.

  42. Nobody tried to force the Little Sisters of the Poor pay for birth control (actually health insurance that covers birth control). The LSP argued that they shouldn’t have to sign the paper that stated they didn’t want to pay for birth control because that would allow the employees to get the coverage elsewhere because that was the moral equivalent of condoning birth control.

  43. I think Trump said just enough on the topics of pro-life/Roe v Wade to get some people for whom that’s an/the important issue to feel ok supporting him. I don’t really think that’s his biggest issue.

    The economy is.

    Still, I am concerned about his choice for Supreme Court justice.

  44. If Bernie had won, first I think a third party would have cropped up. I actually think we could get a third party now, but it would have already happened. Secondly, the real oppo research would have been done, the stuff Hillary didn’t want to fling at him. Do you really think someone like Bernie, a radical in the 60’s, got through without having done something that looked really bad to today’s eyes? Maybe a little flag burning, or a membership in something Communist? I have a friend who lost an important position in one of the federal grant agencies because she had been a radical at one point and knew one of those people who robbed the Brinks truck. I guess because she had visited him in jail, the grant agency decided to rescind her position. Bernie could easily have had crap like that in his past. And finally, I know quite a bit about the views of Trump voters, since I grew up among them and I have relatives still in that area. To them, socialist is an extreme dirty word. Bernie against Trump? It would have been the same turnout for Trump. Pair that with a third party, and the outcome would have been the same

  45. Rhett I have no idea whether Trump has any “plans”

    I think his plan is to do what he thinks (and apparently he is right ) is popular.

  46. Dell, there are litmus tests on both sides for Supreme Court justices. Both sides are wrong, IMO, and the practice of allowing contested social issues to be decided by a single unelected person is a dangerous one. If Clinton had been elected, she would have nominated justices who support Roe but are prepared to overturn Citizens United and Heller.

  47. “Maybe a little flag burning, or a membership in something Communist?”

    I doubt that most voters care about either of those today. Millennials don’t seem to have a clue about what communism is anyhow.

  48. Millennials voted blue.

    And it looks like Hillary actually won the popular vote, so there will be more shouting about the electoral college.

  49. And on top of that, Millennials are old. It’s time to start obsessing about Generation Z and all of THEIR faults.

  50. I really didn’t want a popular/electoral college split. He won it fair and square and I don’t want to hear about it. I think it shows how there really are 2 different factions and makes it much harder to unite everyone. 1/3 of all elections that I have voted in have split the popular and electoral college.

  51. Can any recommend some books on Andrew Jackson or JacksonIan democracy in general? I think this is most apt historiCal parallel.

  52. “Market’s up 1%. Sorry, Finn.”

    Thanks, but I’m fine. I didn’t move anything out of the market into cash in anticipation of a drop, but in filling out the FAFSA and CSS/profile, I had to delve deeper into our finances than I have in a long time, and realized we are cash heavy, so this was looking like a potential opportunity to address that.

    I think the markets’ reaction is an indication that there won’t be any radical changes soon. I’m also comforted by looking at Trump’s family, none of whom appears to be a lunatic, including his sister, who is an apparently well-respected judge.

    As I told my kids last night, we survived W/Cheney. I didn’t mention how they got us into Iraq.

  53. “Would you also agree that he’s a populist and will do what’s popular unbound by an ideological framework?”

    I’m not sure about that. He has no track record, so for all we know he was saying what he thought it would take to get him elected.

    The key question now is if he aspires to a 2nd term. If not, he’s really not beholden to anyone, and can follow his conscience or his wallet or whatever else he wants to follow.

  54. So here’s the letter from DS3’s school principal (it was said/read to the school) this morning:
    – somewhat redacted to provide a modicum of anonymity –

    Dear Parents and Guardians,

    This morning, prior to our recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance as a school community, I offered the following brief reflection, and I wanted to share it with you, too:

    Good morning, [school name]. Please remain standing as we will say the Pledge together in a moment.

    If you are like me, sometimes you say the words of the pledge without really thinking too much about them. Our minds might be on other things, what’s happening later in the day, what happened yesterday. But I think today, the day after Election Day, is a day to really focus on the words of the pledge we say each morning.

    I remember well the Presidential elections when I was in middle school and high school and in college, and how after each one the reporters on TV and the articles online and later on social media all talked about division in our country. This morning is no different, after an election that was especially close and, on both sides, did not always bring out our best. And yet this talk of division is at odds with the words of the pledge we say each morning, when we commit to not just to a flag or a republic for which that flag stands but also very important ideals, among them unity as one nation under God and indivisible, and liberty and justice for all.

    We at [school name] know something about unity. We saw it earlier this year, when we came together to mourn the loss of [classmate], and support one another; we saw it as we support our fall sports teams and will do so again tomorrow at the sectional final for __________; we see it at liturgy, when we come together to praise God and thank him for all of our gifts and blessings; and we see it every June, when a graduating class comes together to be sent out to set the world on fire.

    And in that world, we are blessed to live in a country where elections are free and fair, and we are blessed to be a part of a school community that challenges each of us to live the magis — a Latin word that many of you know, a Latin word that essentially calls us to make ourselves great, by seeking deeper understanding, more kindness, and closer community.

    Pat Carter, who writes about St. Ignatius, said:

    “We must remember that we are all part of the Great Work, that all persons are part of God’s loving presence–even those whose opinions are totally different than ours. They are still expressing some truth. And we need to look for the truth and build together on that foundation, rather than focus on differences.”

    This joining together, this one-ness, this hope for indivisibility, is part of our community, and it’s also an ideal reflected in our Pledge of Allegiance, when we speak of a “United” States, of “one nation under God” committed to “liberty and justice for all.” And so — as we say the Pledge together this morning, let’s really focus on these words, what they mean, and what they invite us to hope for in our country and in ourselves. Please join me now in saying:

    I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

    One of the elements of the Profile of the Graduate at Graduation which guides our educational and formational programs at [school], calls for our forming a young man who “is becoming more flexible and open to other points of view; recognizes how much one learns from a careful listening to peers and significant others; and recognizes one’s biases, limitations, and thinking patterns.”

    While the political climate following such a close election suggests division as a country, we take consolation in our shared identity as a school community joined by common values of respect, lifelong learning, a respect for diversity, and a call to leadership. Please join us in continuing to encourage our students to aspire to these values and their own call to lives of excellence, service, and justice.


  55. Some interesting observations in this WaPo article. Who knew that Trump drew so many non-white voters?

    “Twenty-nine percent of Latinos voted for Trump, per exit polls. Remarkably, despite the near-ubiquitous narrative that Trump would have deep problems with this demographic given his comments and position on immigration, this was a higher percentage of those who voted for GOP nominee Mitt Romney in 2012. Meanwhile, African Americans did not turn out to vote against Trump. In fact, Trump received a higher percentage of African American votes than Romney did.”

    “The reality is that six in 10 Americans do not have a college degree, and they elected Donald Trump. College-educated people didn’t just fail to see this coming — they have struggled to display even a rudimentary understanding of the worldviews of those who voted for Trump. This is an indictment of the monolithic, insulated political culture in the vast majority our colleges and universities.”

  56. In fact, Trump received a higher percentage of African American votes than Romney did.””

    eh – 1%

    “Some 88% of black voters supported Clinton, versus 8% for Trump, who said repeatedly that black communities are in the worst shape ever.

    While that’s a large margin, it’s not as big as President Barack Obama’s victory over Mitt Romney in 2012. Obama locked up 93% of the black vote to Romney’s 7%.”

  57. Only 65% of Latinos supported her, while 29% cast their votes for Trump. In 2012, Obama won 71% of the Hispanic vote, while Romney secured 27%.

    eh – Only a 2% increase over Romney. Given that everyone was expecting a decrease, that’s something but impressive, no.

    Of the 29%, I wonder what percentage Cuban voters are? Florida Cubans historically note Republican and that is only starting to change.

  58. Scarlett,

    He’s seems to be saying Trump’s win proves everything he already believed. I’m seeing a lot of that kind of analysis and it doesn’t ring true to me.

  59. Whether or not you voted for Trump, I think there is one thing we can all agree on: the man needs to get a decent haircut.

  60. Scarlett, I love that article. It articulates my initial response to an earlier comment about cisgender white males, since my firefighter uncle is a cisgender white male. He probably doesn’t realize he is a cisgender white male, but if he did, he sure wouldn’t talk about it at the fire station.

  61. Rhett,
    It is sort of an obvious analysis, agreed. But a lot of people did vote for Trump, including minorities and others who were thought to be beyond his reach.

  62. Dow’s up 1.57% I wonder what the thinking is?

    Tax cuts, infrastructure spending driving economic growth. Deficits be damned.

  63. One of my friends who lives in PA and who is Jewish just reported that her kid came home today having been subjected to anti semitic comments. Another kid who is Muslim was told that she would be deported. Lovely gloating, hmm?

  64. Flag burning is still a huge issue for conservatives, especially those who have served in the military. And socialism is a major epithet for older whites, who of course were a big share of Trump’s voters. Older whites remember when Communism was the foe. I don’t think Bernie would have attracted many of Trump’s voters. And he would have pushed many moderate Democrats over to a third party – I think far more than the Bernie people who voted for Jill Stein.

    I do think, if the Democrats lurch leftware which is likely, and the Republicans morph into a white nationalist party, which is also likely, that a third party will emerge.

  65. Scarlett,

    Think about the sets of issues that are often at the core of the identity of the working-class folks who elected Trump: religion, personal liberty’s relationship with government, gender, marriage, sexuality, prenatal life and gun rights.

    Yeh, I don’t think those issues were driving the vote for Trump:

    Referring to comments from an unnamed commentator who on Wednesday said North Carolina should “leave it the way it is right now,” Trump said he agreed.

    “Leave it the way it is. North Carolina, what they’re going through with all the business that’s leaving, all of the strife — and this is on both sides. Leave it the way it is,” he said, referring to companies that have canceled plans to move or expand businesses in the state as a result of the law, which bans transgender individuals from using a bathroom that does not match their gender at birth.

    “There have been very few complaints the way it is. People go. They use the bathroom that they feel is appropriate,” Trump said. “There has been so little trouble. And the problem with what happened in North Carolina is the strife and the economic — I mean, the economic punishment that they’re taking.”

    Matt Lauer then asked whether Trump has any transgender people working for his company.

    “I really don’t know. I probably do. I really don’t know,” Trump said, answering that he would allow, say, transgender celebrity Caitlyn Jenner to use whatever bathroom she wanted at Trump Tower.

    He added, “You know, there’s a big move to create new bathrooms. Problem with that is for transgender, that would be—first of all, I think that would be discriminatory in a certain way. That would be unbelievably expensive for businesses in the country. Leave it the way it is.”

  66. Who knows. Why would so many women vote for a guy who doesn’t see women as equal in value to men? People have their own peculiar reasons.

  67. “Why would so many women vote for a guy who doesn’t see women as equal in value to men?”

    Maybe because they disagree with your conclusion? Are these women stupid or ignorant? That seems to be the underlying assumption.

  68. Interesting.. I have mentioned before that there are a lot of non college educated working class people on DH’s side of the family. In many ways they look like the stereotype of that demographic – one is 33 with 3 kids and a drug addicted babydad, another is middle aged on SSI. But they all voted against Trump. And when I went onto FB a little while ago, they were posting most of the “stunned, shocked, in tears” posts in the feed. Three of them had never voted before, and voted this time only to keep Trump out. But they are Trump’s demographic – why the different viewpoint?

  69. No, I didn’t say that. People have their own reasons and weigh things differently. I am not sure that we can speculate as to why 30% of Latino voters voted in a specific way any more than we can speculate as to why women did.

    But you aren’t going to convince me that he values women the same as men. Sorry.

  70. MM I could turn your question around and ask why some of my friends with post graduate degrees rejected Clinton for third party candidates or even the man himself? People are individuals apart from their demographics. Not all white college educated women voted for Clinton. Not all working class men voted for Trump.

  71. My kid came home to day with a rant. Went basically like this. If someone is anti-donuts, then they want to make the law that no one can eat one ever, even if it is the traditional food of your ethnicity or religion. If someone is pro-donuts, they want to make the law tht you must eat a donut every day, even if they make you sick (diabetes/celiac disease) or are forbidden by your religion. Someone is pro-choice if they leave the choice up to you whether and how many donuts to eat. If something is against your religion, you aren’t going to do it or are willing to accept the consequence. So, why (1) does pro-choice always sound so bad and (2) why can’t we just let people choose for themselves?

    As a teen, the rant was over, no response expected from me, which was good because I really didn’t know what to say.

  72. Scarlett, a better comparison would be friends with PhDs who had happily voted FOR Trump, not third party candidates.
    I actually know a lot of conservatives who voted third party or sat this out. They are no more suprising than your PhD friends who went third party

  73. I’m not trying to convince anyone about Trump’s views on women. I accept and understand that opinions differ on that.

    I am already tired of darkness at 4:45. That’s my rant for today!

  74. MM I know women with PhDs who voted for Trump. More than 40% of women voted for Trump. I also know fairly conservative Catholic priests who voted for Clinton. People and issues are complicated. The sweeping assertions I’ve encountered on both sides are disturbing.

  75. Last night there was a lot of why didn’t the polls show this or that. I think one commentator got it right when he said, the secret ballot is secret for a reason. If I don’t tell you who I plan to vote or voted for you cannot use that against me as a family member, student, employee etc. Add on to that each person generally has a few issues that are the most important to them and will pick a candidate based on those – economy, SCOTUS appointments, immigration, perceived candidate honesty – rather than the whole portfolio. That makes it harder to say a demographic is going to go one way or another.

  76. I am trying to understand why some of my female friends voted for Trump. One of my neighbors is a deeply religious woman, and she attends mass several times a week. She is educated, and has a young daughter. She told me that she voted for Trump because of the Court. She kept talking about Scalia and she truly believes that Trump will find the next Scalia. There are some people that vote for the candidate because they realize that the person will select the justices, and possibly influence America for 30 or 40 years.

    I was trying to decide what I would do in the opposite situation. The question I asked myself was would I be willing to cast my vote for Trump if he was the Democratic candidate, and he promised to nominate justices such as Garland.

  77. “Why would 30% of Latino voters vote for a white nationalist candidate?”

    I just heard a pundit explain that by pointing out that many Latinos are sexist and would never vote for a woman.

  78. Scartlett/WCE,

    I liked that article as well. It goes back to previous discussions about how college students think campuses should be “safe spaces” and they shouldn’t have to deal with opinions they disagree with or that might upset them. It also speaks to “the bubble” and how the UMC/UC is largely out of touch with the true MC and lower class.

  79. . She told me that she voted for Trump because of the Court.

    If I was in a swing state, I would have had to think long and hard about who I voted for and probably would have chosen Trump because of the Court.

  80. AustinMom +1 – I told my kids this morning that we live in a democracy and Trump is the President-elect and they had to respect that fact. I also won’t tell them who I voted for and told them they are not to ask anyone who they voted for as it is our right to vote in secrecy so that one is not “punished” for their vote.

  81. Dh voted for Trump because of the court. My parents and DH’s parents all voted for Trump for varying reasons (illegal immigration, unscreened refugees, and they like his outsider status). When you think about it the American people elected Obama for a lot of the same reasons (change/untested and inexperienced) and the Bernie fans had similar reasoning.

    Maureen Dowd talked about her conservative family’s vote for Trump today and said:
    “Hillary’s closing line in the campaign was that she was the only thing standing between her and the abyss. But to my conservative family, Hillary was the abyss while Donald was the baseball bat to smash Washington.”

  82. Can we please find a way to amuse ourselves that does not involve mocking teachers?

    That’s my rant of the day. Thank you for listening.

    –NoB (the tired spouse of a tired teacher who tries his best for EVERY kid, totebag class or not)

  83. My state voted to regulate ammo, outlaw plastic/paper bags at the grocery store, release violent sex offenders early and legalize marijuana.


  84. “how the UMC/UC is largely out of touch with the true MC and lower class.”
    True that. But the white MC is equally out of touch. Where my sister lives is largely white, a town pretty much ruled by a few very conservative churches. Her friends and colleagues there cannot understand how I could have a class full of Muslim students without a) pitying the students for their backwardness or b) being afraid of them. They simply don’t have that experience. When my sister tells them about visiting me and going to a carnival, and being one of a few Anglo whites in a sea of brown people, they respond by saying they would be scared. The idea that people don;t necessarilly drive – unfathomable. Even more unfathomable – that people don’t go to church (that may be that town, which is really dominated by conservative Christians). Their information sources tell them that Obama will take away their guns, and is a secret Muslim. They really cannot fathom what it is like to be MC in a city – note I say MC, not UMC, not rich – like NY. They don’t get our concerns either. So, how is that not a bubble?

    I am just tired of the assumption that the only real American is a rural white American.

  85. Speaking of rural white Americans, did anybody read all of Hillbilly Elegy? I have my ad hoc book club talking about it on Sunday and it’s really compelling. There’s lots more in the story than just the stuff that got excerpted in the press. Mooshi’s comment reminded me about it, because Vance points out that very few “hillbillies” actually go to church, but they are all very religious and they all SAY they go to church.

  86. RMS – I read the Hillbilly Ellegy. I really liked it. Please suggest The Sellout to your ad hoc book club as well.

  87. I think I mentioned this before – one of our close family friends, someone I have known for years and years – is someone very much like JD Vance, although he actually grew up on the side of a mountain in Appalachia rather than being raised in Ohio.

  88. One bright spot in the day is my household bottom line. My husband went to sleep much earlier than me because he was watching Bloomberg, and he felt sick because it reminded him of Brexit. He went into the office on a 6AM train, and he said it was silent and most people looked tired and stunned. He thought his day would be an ugly repeat of the day after Brexit. By the time he got home for dinner, I could see that he was in a great mood. I couldn’t figure it out, but I never checked the markets all day. I read the posts here at the end of the afternoon, but I had no idea that financial firms soared in the markets today.

  89. I think one of the ways in which I erred on this election was in my assumptions of what conservatives would do. I have a fair number of friends and aquaintances who are conservative, mainly from adoption circles, the pediatric cancer community, and people I knew growing up. Most of these people not only hated Hillary but also hated Trump and were sitting out. I realize that my sample set was skewed though – these friends are mainly all very evangelical, very religious and family oriented. They were very offended by Trump and distrusted his commitment to their views on abortion. Based on that, I imagined more Republicans would sit out than actually did.

  90. The problem I have with that book is that he grew up in Middletown, Oh. It is basically a suburb of Cincy. Not unlike a lot of former steel towns outside of Pittsburgh. Not hillbilly land.

  91. Well, but he discusses the migration of so many Kentucky folks to the steel towns of Ohio, and the Kentucky subcommunities in those places.

  92. He is doing what everyone does. Considers everyone in the middle to be the same. Trust me on this. It is not hillbilly land.

  93. I am not familiar with Middletown, but I know Cincy well. We used to go there because we thought it was the fancy cultural center of the area!!!

  94. Miami U has a branch in Middletown. Miami is also affectionately referred to as J Crew U. And a ton of people in Middletown go to Miami (main campus and branch).

  95. So how do you go about reviving these towns and helping the people out ? These are also the places that have the opiate crisis aren’t they ?

  96. I do not know. I just take issue with his characterization and subsequent criticisms and interpretations because I think his premise is false.

    Dreamland is a good book about the drug problem in these towns.

  97. The thing is, the opoid crisis is new, but Appalachia has been a basket case since at least when I was a child. It was and is a world of very poor people, whose work in the coal mines destroyed their bodies, so many men ended up on black lung benefits by their 40’s. Unemployment has always been really high there. This isn’t some new thing, or a plot by liberal elites, or Obama, or anyone else. And I doubt Trump is going to fix it

  98. I’m very concerned that no one knows anything. Left, right, center – nada. Maybe once everyone calms down we’ll get a better sense of what the plan is going to be going forward?

  99. RMS, I just finished that book too and wished he had included a bit more of his adult life. It sounded as though he might have had a different upbringing than others in his town because of the constant travel back and forth to the “holler” and his deep connection to his grandparents and family members still back there. I liked his observations towards the end about the little that separated his success from the bad outcomes of others with similar backgrounds. How he got through Ohio State in under 2 years was kind of a puzzle. What did he major in? And how did he get his job as the principal in a finance firm with only a few years legal experience? Too many unanswered questions. He needs to visit our blog.

  100. RMS, I read Hillbilly Elegy cover-to-cover. My main take-away was the difference between religious practice in the upper Midwest (Dakotas, Minnesota, Northwest Iowa) and Appalachia. I remember when the NY Times had the county by county map of the US, that MN/SD/ND/Northwest Iowa had social characteristics similar to those in wealthy coastal cities without the income.

  101. I read somewhere that Vance majored in political science and tested out of a lot of prereqs/core courses to get done that quickly.

  102. “Solving the Opiate Crisis Through Mapping and Data Analytics”

    Sounds like a SM sort of thing.

  103. The reformulation of opioids to prevent abuse had the tragic unintended consequence of driving users to heroin. That is a huge problem in mid America.

  104. Rhett – I am not sure why, but your 9:44 comment has me laughing really hard. Maybe a coping mechanism.

  105. Mooshi- I was also shocked by the results. In my social circle of college educated conservative Catholics and Evangelicals, the great majority were disgusted by both candidates and were vocal about voting third party.

  106. “the great majority were disgusted by both candidates and were vocal about voting third party.”

    So they said. The exit polls — if they can be trusted — and Johnson’s limited success, seem to suggest that Trump did just as well among Republicans as Hillary performed with Democrats.

    Some of your friends quietly “came home,” Rio. Mike Pence seemed to give all the cover the evangelicals needed, both nationally and anecdotally among people I know. He very well may have been a better strategic choice than Kasich.

  107. Scarlett – I don’t think it is reformulation, per se. I think it is restricting access. In my community, there has been a big change in the last 6-8 years with ERs prescribing narcotics. It used to be that everyone walked out with an rx for 30 oxys. Now, many more physicians are willing to straight out refuse, databases help us identify abusers, EMRs make it harder to manipulate the story. My work environment has changed drastically over that time period, but I prescribe 90% less opioids than I used to. If I was at my original place of work, I bet I would be prescribing 50% less.

    As it becomes more difficult to get prescription narcotics, the demand for black market narcotics increases (synthetics of unclear origin, heroin). I’ve yet to believe that we are making progress in the opioid crisis, despite big efforts.

  108. My thoughts on the results…I live in a battleground/swing state. This is very different from living in a state that is always blue or always red. I lived in an always blue state and there wasn’t any campaigning from candidates except for local elections. People couldn’t imagine voting for one party in one election and then switching around and voting for another party the next election.
    Here, candidates visit very frequently, radio ads bombard you from very early on in an election cycle. This time at the end with the 3 or 4 percentage point difference that most of the polls were reporting, what I saw was a close race not a lock the way President Obama had in 2008 or even in 2012. In my area there were hardly any stickers or lawn signs for either candidate. President Obama 2008 stickers are still on a few cars but there were no Hilary stickers or no Trump stickers. There was silence. In that silence I saw people trying to decide and they might not have made up their minds till they voted. I guess I am not shocked nor do I wonder how the polls got it wrong because to me it appeared very close and changing by the minute.
    It is difficult to imagine that this could be happening is several states all over country, thousands of miles apart, when personally you are in a state that has already decided.

  109. Ada, for some drugs it is a reformulation. The extended release version of I believe Oxy-Contin was crushable, enabling users to ingest all at once a drug that was meant for slow release. When the manufacturer switched to a noncrushable pill, heroin became the drug of choice among that population.

  110. Louise, your explanation makes a lot of sense to me. Given that and other explanations discussed here, I’m not sure how we can trust polls anymore unless some significant changes are made. Maybe big data/ big brother will someday make better predictions. Heck, maybe even replace elections! A chip implanted in our brains could make polling places and ids completely unnecessary.

    Speaking of big brother and related to the Weiner/Huma emails incident, I only noticed recently that my car automatically updates my smartphone contact lists and conversations. Perhaps other phone data (like emails) can or could be stored in our cars. Now I’m wondering how careful you have to be when you sell your car to avoid having your data being released to others.

    One thing I found interesting about the opioid problems is that the reports I’ve seen indicate that locally and nationally hospital visits due to this drug have significantly increased but deaths have not. I know our police now carry Narcan to intervene and prevent overdoses.

  111. I was surprised by how casually dismissive Mitch McConnell was of so much of Trumps first 100 days agenda. I don’t think this is going to work out like Mitch expects.

  112. Hmm, I could see this happening.

    Donald Trump’s Win Starts a New Era for Republicans
    Party members across the country move toward adopting positions held by the president-elect that they previously opposed

    “Donald Trump opened the eyes of some of the Republicans, and I think you’ll see some shift on issues,” Mr. Nystrom said. “You better keep your eyes and ears open to adhere to what the public wants.”

    I joined a friend’s FB group that appears to be a sort of support group to help “derail the hatred and divisiveness that has just won the presidency”. Oh man, so many people are suffering. Bernie Sanders will be in a NYC bookstore to promote his new book, and I’m sure his appearance will be mobbed.

  113. Louise you make an excellent point about silence. I don’t live in a swing state but in our blue collar but also university community there were very few stickers or signs this time compared with 2008. I saw more faded Obama bumper stickers than for Trump or Clinton until near the end when a few Trump stickers emerged. I’ve suspected for a while that the silent Trump supporters would play a significant part in the results.
    In DC today but at the airports people were talking about everyday matters. A group of exuberant 8th graders on our flight were excited about their class trip to DC. But then I got a text from a close friend who is Jewish and whose grown daughters with Ivy League degrees were inconsolable, asking if they would be rounded up into concentration camps. These are grandchildren of Holocaust survivors so maybe they get a pass but it still seemed an extreme reaction.

  114. CoC,

    “I don’t know where conservatives can go,” Mr. Boaz said. “Right now, you have to say there is no major political party that is even rhetorically committed to small government and free enterprise.”

    You can see the realignment taking place.

    “Donald Trump tapped into the anger of a declining middle class that is sick and tired of establishment economics, establishment politics and the establishment media,” Sanders said in a statement Wednesday. “People are tired of working longer hours for lower wages, of seeing decent paying jobs go to China and other low-wage countries….

  115. Scarlett – I am saying this without any snark – at one point, Trump said that Muslims would have to register. Did he mean it? I have no idea. But he did say it. He has since retracted it. But you can’t blame people for being scared that Trump is going to do what he has promised to do.

  116. Kate, I am saying this without snark too. Did you honestly believe that it would be possible, legally or politically, to require American Muslims to register? Trump is extremely ignorant and careless in his speech, which are both glaring flaws and certainly sound reasons for opposing him, but the concentration camp fear seems baseless.

  117. Did you honestly believe that it would be possible, legally or politically, to require American Muslims to register?

    After a big domestic terrorist strike? I’m certain that could happen.

  118. No. I do not. But this sort of thing emboldens people. It creates an atmosphere of hostility. And people are upset and scared. Can’t blame them. And he isn’t careless. Mitt Romney was careless when he made his remark about binders full of women. Obama was careless when he compared Obamacare to a phone that catches on fire. This is how Trump feels and many people are now acutely aware that so many of their fellow Americans don’t think it is w big enough deal to elect someone else. I would probably reserve judgment and give them a bit of time.

  119. Scarlett, I have a mailing list friend in one of the swing states who is Jewish, and last night someone, she thinks some teens, placed a Trump sign, with a pro Hitler Youth note, on her front lawn. She called the police but is also planning to report it to the ADL. There are a number of Jewish women on this list, and all are very upset.

  120. and I should clarify – legally (under our current laws) I do not think that it could happen. But politically? Absolutely.

  121. Scarlett
    I have encountered that reaction, too, and it is over the top for now. The mainstreaming of alt right discourse during the campaign (Jews are not white to them, we are infiltrators, hence the need to out us with the double parentheses and the like), the heavy use of anti semitic tropes and dog whistles in Trump sanctioned communications, the naming of Muslims and Mexicans as the initial groups to fear and restrict (guess would will be next), those are warning signs. So vigilance is required.

  122. Anti-semitism is not something new, however repugnant it is. It has been surfacing at elite college campuses for some time, all during the Obama administration in fact. There are more hate crimes directed against Jews than all other religious groups put together. One cannot fairly blame Trump or his supporters for this trend.

  123. Meme, vigilance is always required. Anti-semitism is the canary in the coal mine for almost all “isms.”

  124. Well, this is an interesting chart. Trump actually got fewer votes than McCain in ’08 or Romney in ’12. The Dems simply didn’t come out. Some of that is due to voter suppression, but I will concede that a lot is due to lack of enthusiasm for Hillary, perhaps combined with some magical thinking that Trump couldn’t possibly be elected.

  125. And Hillary won the popular vote by a substantial margin. There just isn’t a “Trump mandate”.

  126. Scarlett

    The identity politics left is as a matter of sincere principle pro plaestinian and anti Zionist. Many US Jews actively oppose the settlement policies of the past 25 years in Israel and the theocratic right wing governments. But the campus guardians of right thinking, including some of Jewish background, have decided that Zionism is so baked into Jewish identity that only a full repudiation of Israel will qualify, and even then it is suspect.
    In Europe far left intellectuals have dismissed 95% of Holocaust victims as European on European violence. Only the Roma, the Balkan Muslims, and possibly the homosexuals are deemed truly ” other” enough to be worth mention.
    So vigilance is required, the support of all decent people is needed, but ultimately we are going to have to look out for ourselves. The only other group I know that truly understands this deep seated fear is the Armenians.

  127. Scarlett, I don’t know if you intend this, but you seem quite dismissive of anti-Semitism. I don’t think anyone is “blaming” Trump and his followers for its rise. They are themselves the stark visual indicators of its rise and increasing acceptance. Mémé’s statement, “So vigilance is required, the support of all decent people is needed, but ultimately we are going to have to look out for ourselves” seems absolutely correct in the context of this online conversation. Do you understand my point?

  128. It has already begun! From my Facebook feed, in leafy suburbs of Chicago, someone who was born here but whose ancestry is from India was called a terrorist and told to go back.

    The racism and misogyny is emboldened. This is what you voted for Trumpsters.

  129. RMS – I saw this this morning

    It’s a very interesting thought – that 1% difference would have turned the election, and 44% of eligible voters didn’t turn out…

  130. My husband who really dislikes Hillary but voted for her nonetheless is very upset over the result of this election. Way more than I am. I am not sure what to make of this. Strange times.

  131. So vigilance is required, the support of all decent people is needed, but ultimately we are going to have to look out for ourselves” seems absolutely correct in the context of this online conversation.

    I don’t quite understand this, however, I do know about the Japanese internment and I have actually seen anti semitic comments at the university. I think we all need to look out for each other. In the past year, both young black men and an old white rancher were gunned down by the police. If we let “them” whoever they are, divide us, then we are all at greater risk.

  132. The two questions that I would ask is about those two charts are is where is the 44.4 percent and the other votes from? Are they from states that were easily won by a candidate or are they from states where it might make a difference?

    I know that people don’t like the electoral college but it is there to protect each state and give them weight in the election. To give an extreme example, if we go to a popular vote imagine in a number of years with the drought so bad, that a candidate tells Californians elect me and i will take all the water resources from those middle states that we don’t care about because we need it more, there are more of us and we are more important. California already gets a large slice of the electoral college but they can’t win the elect alone with the current system. In a popular vote system they would have even more weight and I don’t think any of us really wants one state making the call for everyone else. Our system is built to allow for differences and with the checks and balances is suppose to move somewhat slowly. For most elections, no president really runs away with the electoral college and I think that is a good thing. I want the checks and balances. I want them to know that they have to work with the other side and make compromises. I don’t want someone who has a mandate to do everything s/he wants. I want someone who leads the whole country.

  133. Rhett – I agree. DH is very worried about the possible tariffs and the effect on the economy. I am more worried about the social problems mentioned above (increasingly public sentiments, and actions, against everyone who isn’t white cisgender male, including Jewish people and women!). HOWEVER if Scarlett is right and Trump “doesn’t really mean” what he says about minorities and women (I am not holding my breath!), then it might not be the end of the world.

  134. I don’t think any of us really wants one state making the call for everyone else.

    Unless it’s California! (I’m kidding! Hey, put that down!)

    Rhett, right, Trump will not be managed, especially by the people on his enemies list.

  135. I went on Facebook and read of children crying at school and parents being beside themselves about what to tell their children. I don’t think that children under the age of 12 or so should really know much about elections, other than they are happening. Demonizing one candidate or the other so much that your children believe that their lives are over if your choice doesn’t win seems excessive, especially since our country traditionally flips back and forth every 8 years or so.

    I am not talking about immigrant families or Muslim families who might have more cause to be concerned, more your UMC Totebag families who whipped their children up into such an anti-Trump fever that they are unable to function.

  136. If you want a really classic liberal elitist response to the election, check out Garrison Keillor:

    We liberal elitists are now completely in the clear. The government is in Republican hands. Let them deal with him. Democrats can spend four years raising heirloom tomatoes, meditating, reading Jane Austen, traveling around the country, tasting artisan beers, and let the Republicans build the wall and carry on the trade war with China and deport the undocumented and deal with opioids and we Democrats can go for a long brisk walk and smell the roses.

  137. Wel, darn. The filter bubbles on my feed must be broken. My family (parents/sibs) are totally the black sheep of our large extended family, so maybe that explains it.

  138. The whining on Facebook is getting old already. We had an election, half the country didn’t get the candidate they wanted. Ok, maybe more than half, but those were really are only two choices at that point. There are checks and balances, the rule of law, and there will be another election in four years. Lots of people were unhappy when Obama won, lots of people were unhappy when G W Bush won, people were unhappy when Clinton, Bush, Reagan, Carter and Nixon won.

    The country has survived Nixon, Warren G. Harding and others. The world is not ending.

  139. “teens in Macedonia are responsible for a large portion of fake pro-Trump news, according to a BuzzFeed analysis.”

    That just made me laugh

  140. Anon @ 10:08 – ITA. I saw this a lot on FB where parents were talking about their 5 year olds in tears and their little kids talking about how “stupid” Trump is. I had the same conversation with DH last night about all of this “how can I face my kids” stuff is completely ridiculous for the average American. We both agreed you say “we had an election, Donald Trump won fairly, and we hope he does really great because this is our country.”

  141. On election night, I was texting my college DD and she was concerned about riots if Trump won. I told her that was silly, this is the United States, not a banana republic. We have peaceful elections.

    Last night she told me she was staying in her dorm room because she didn’t want to deal with the protesters.

    I am appalled at the riots and protests.

  142. Around here politics is a religion and all of the kids discuss it. Used to impart values. My 4 yo came home from preschool talking about it. I had to clear up a few things.

    I don’t support the rioting but I very much support the non-violent protests. It doesn’t get much more American than that.

  143. I am appalled at the riots and protests.

    I agree with you on the riots. But, being a free country, don’t people have the right to protest?

  144. We talk about politics all the time at home. My younger two were very much engaged and interested in the election, although it is just not prudent to talk about the election at school.

    We have been amazed at who among our friends and neighbors were actual Trump supporters and how fervent they were. For some reason, it was not a surprise as to who was a Hillary supporter. Perhaps that was our own bias. For some people, it was clear that Hilary’s gender and political affiliation trumped her character flaws. Others, were scared to death by Trump’s understanding (?) of international trade and supported Hillary.

    What I have been amazed at are the kids are the school, who are citizens, who think they could get deported. Where exactly would they be deported too?

  145. I agree with you on the riots. But, being a free country, don’t people have the right to protest?

    I was unclear. Peaceful protests are the right of free people. Violent ones, with fires burning in the streets, not so much.

  146. The FB group of aggrieved anti-Trumpers that I joined (at a friend’s request) just set up a Coalition to Impeach & Organize Against the President Elect. That escalated quickly.

  147. My daughter was one who asked if she could be deported. This was before the election and she didn’t phrase it exactly like that. She asked if Trump could send her back to China. This is not something we would have ever discussed, however, she knows she was a Chinese citizen first, that we had to do a lot of paperwork surrounding her US citizenship, and she had heard much discussion of Muslims and Mexicans being deported. So I think she put those things together. I heard that one of the other girls in our adoptive group asked the same question. Anyway, this was over the weekend and I assurred her that her paperwork was in order and that she is just as good of a citizen as anyone else.

  148. “The Dems simply didn’t come out. Some of that is due to voter suppression, but I will concede that a lot is due to lack of enthusiasm for Hillary”

    ITA. I think there are a number of other Dem candidates who would’ve won the election had they decided to run (e.g., Biden, Warren) and had built up momentum during the primaries, like Sanders did.

    I’ve said it before, but the popularity of Sanders had a lot to do with the “lack of enthusiasm for Hillary.”

  149. Anyway, this was over the weekend and I assurred her that her paperwork was in order and that she is just as good of a citizen as anyone else.

    This sort of thing is my pet peeve, so I am probably ranting, so disregard.

    Your daughter is not “as good of a citizen as anyone else” She is a CITIZEN. Citizenship is not a function of color, race, gender, or religion. Some citizens are born here, some become citizens, but we all have the same rights and obligations.

  150. “The whining on Facebook is getting old already. ”

    Less than 2 days after the results, when HRC won the popular vote? I think not.

    Also quite easy for someone like you to say. A gay friend of mine is worried she may have to leave the country. The angst amongst the Jewish community is palpable. My friends who work for healthcare NGOs are very worried. Other people Trump dismissed as “other” are very worried and yes, people are gathering to peacefully protest these results.

    People need more time.

  151. Cordelia, I am not getting your rant. My daughter was worried that she didn’t have the same rights. I needed to phrase it in a way that she, being 10, could understand. Keep in mind that she is adopted, and adopted kids often worry about being sent back even if it is domestic. They have a little feeling of impermanence. Couple that with the fact that she knows she has a CoC and her brothers don’t, and she has a whole lot of mysterious documents in Chinese that we mainly keep in a safety deposit box, and then mix with all the talk of deportations, and you can see that she might start wondering.

  152. I always thought presidential elections are a time for a good civics lesson for kids and given the omnipresence of media (print, TV, social), I don’t see how kids could avoid it. I wanted to be able to have my children watch the debates but a lot of it was not 10-year old appropriate. I don’t know how you get kids to understand the world and be able to form and articulate opinions without exposing them to some framework of the issue. One of my kids was upset about Trump’s dismissal of climate change; the other shrugged his shoulders and said “I think both sides exaggerate how bad the other one is…he probably won’t be that bad”.

  153. In the past people from my ethnic community would keep renewing their permanent resident status even though they had been here for many years. They didn’t want to take citizenship for various reasons. That’s fine most days but should you find yourself in a situation in which the Rutgers kid found himself, you *may* be deported. I was very surprised that my good friends hadn’t gone for citizenship when they effectively have their entire lives here.

  154. Must be nice, to be so self absorbed, that protests are already ‘enough already’ for you!
    Granted that this election cycle has been long, but come on! Try to put yourselves in other people’s shoes.
    People did not do this when Bush won despite loosing popular vote. Trump is just that dangerous.

    I hope to God that all prognostications of everything will be alright and Trump won’t do real harm and set civil rights back by decades prove to be true.

  155. I have relatives that are the Michigan Trump voter. They work in manufacturing, non college educated, white, and live very much in a bubble. Saying racist and sexist comments has always been their norm, and based on their comments in Facebook, having Trump as prez is vindicating their behavior. They have in the past complained that having to be politically correct is imposing on their 1st Amendment right. They see nothing wrong with their insults, find it humorous when their young kids say hurtful racist things (posting it on Facebook). Their attitudes represent a large percentage of this country and I think the fear that many Americans have this week is real.

  156. “Their attitudes represent a large percentage of this country”

    I don’t necessarily agree, but I see that may be a common perception. I was just reading an article about how antisemitism has long been the norm in this country but now Trump’s election is making it acceptable to express it openly. As you suggest, part of the divide has to do with what is considered racist and sexist in the context of today’s political correctness. For example, I still can’t get worked up about Halloween costumes that include sombreros or kimonos, but many consider that racist.

  157. “Did anyone else caution their kids not to engage in any talk about the election today?”

    So I had to be at the airport by 5AM Wed., and I got on the plane knowing DD was going to be hugely upset. A, she feels things very strongly; B, she is 15, when everything is more intense; C, she was excited about the first female president; and D, she is Jewish and has quite a number of LBGT friends. She feels personally very vulnerable and scared. And since she tends to be emotional and highly verbal, I was pretty worried about her running into problems at school.

    So I ended up writing her a long email from the plane. I reassured her that we, personally, are safe (because honestly, with all the rhetoric, I’m not sure she really had the context to understand that this is America and there is still rule of law and, hello, she has a lawyer parent and plenty of resources). I told her that I admired how she stood up for her friends and what she believed in, and that I hoped she would continue to do so, especially when those friends may not feel safe enough to speak up themselves.

    And then I told her that getting angry and namecalling — every sarcastic 15-yr-old’s natural response — wouldn’t help. That a lot of good, decent people voted for Trump (not because of his misogynistic/racist/homophobic/anti-Semitic crap, but in spite of it), and that if she wants to make anything better, she needs to understand why they would do that instead of yelling. That we all grew up with the promise of the American dream that says if you work hard, you can support your family and put food on your table, and that there are a lot of people who have lost jobs and don’t see a path forward and who think the American dream has died for them, and they are scared. And when people get scared, they want someone who seems strong, who listens to them and says they will fix the problem — just like when she had nightmares she wanted to curl up in bed with me. That both she and I don’t believe Trump is the guy who is actually going to fix those problems — but that what we believe doesn’t matter; the point is to understand what *they* believe before you can make any progress. Otherwise you’re just still talking past each other.

    When the flight landed, I had a text from her. She said a guy in her class had been trying to get a rise out of her by yelling all sorts of pro-Trump stuff at her. But that because of my email, she just said “I’m with her” and walked away. I got a little lump in my throat — was the best news I could have gotten on a pretty crappy morning.

  158. I understand the concern about immigration and the ant Muslim rhetoric was appalling, but I’ve missed the antisemtic stuff from Trump. Was it in the form of a dog whistle? Am I clueless? I didn’t dispute that antisemitism exists, but I’m unclear about the connection to Trump. I will admit to averting my eyes from a lot of the campaign from both candidates.

  159. Mooshi, my rant is based on my irritation with modifiers on citizen, probably because I have had enough conversations with the teenagers when they say something to indicate that they aren’t fully a member of this country. And I have to be much gentler with them than I am here.

  160. I was just reading an article about how antisemitism has long been the norm in this country

    Have you read In the Garden of Beasts by Erik Larson? It’s the story of the US Ambassador to Germany and his family. It details his attempt to combat the unfathomable anti-semitism in America at that time. He arrived as the Ambassador and of the 30,000? visas available to Jews to emigrate to the US on 300 had been issued because the staff felt:

    1. Why would we want them in our country?
    2. They deserve what they’re getting in Germany.

    That was within living memory so it didn’t just all disappear overnight.

  161. I’ve missed the antisemtic stuff from Trump.

    Not him – his supporters:

    I was wrong. I’ve spent most of my career arguing that anti-Semitism in the United States is almost entirely a product of the political Left. I’ve traveled across the country from Iowa to Texas; I’ve rarely seen an iota of true anti-Semitism. I’ve sensed far more anti-Jewish animus from leftist college students at the University of California, Los Angeles, than from churches in Valencia….

    I figured wrong. Donald Trump’s nomination has drawn anti-Semites from the woodwork. I’ve experienced more pure, unadulterated anti-Semitism since coming out against Trump’s candidacy than at any other time in my political career. Trump supporters have threatened me and other Jews who hold my viewpoint. They’ve blown up my e-mail inbox with anti-Semitic conspiracy theories. They greeted the birth of my second child by calling for me, my wife, and two children to be thrown into a gas chamber.

  162. I’d forgotten about the reformulation to make things “uncrushable” – but I’m not sure that’s the culprit – that predates the current heroin crisis, I think.

  163. Cordelia –

    Here is the most widely reported incident that touches Trump directly – the pile of money and Star of David Crooked Hillary re-tweet from @realDonaldTrump. Also, his campaign’s last pre-election video used language that is code to anti Semites about shady global financial conspiracies and illustrated it with photos of three Jews. These are not coincidences. I would guess his personal views on Jews are just old fashioned – see his awkward reference to being a good negotiator at a Republican Jewish event, but he still willingly lay down with those who do hold virulent anti-Semitic views and from time to time gave them a wink and a nod.

  164. And WCE wants to send us all back to our countries of origin if we don’t have ABET-accredited engineering degrees. In my case you’ll have to go back centuries and cut me into proportional chunks of German, English, Scottish, “Scandinavian” (thanks,, that’s a big place) and ship me in pieces. But there is obviously a sentiment that being born here, or being a naturalized citizen, isn’t what makes you a citizen. An engineering degree is what makes you a citizen.

  165. “We had an election, half the country didn’t get the candidate they wanted. Ok, maybe more than half, but those were really are only two choices at that point.”

    My guess is well over half didn’t get the candidate they wanted, because a lot of people really didn’t want either Trump or HIllary. I think there was a lot of nose-holding in this election.

  166. “she knows she has a CoC and her brothers don’t”

    I’m guessing you are not referring to the same CoC we all know and love.

  167. RMS – I think my neighbor was casually talking to my DD when my DD told her emphatically that she was born in Boston (this is just in case anyone thinks she was born in the home country). And she will not say in the U.S. but Boston.

  168. Anti Semitic and anti Latino writing complete with nazi swastika were drawn in some PA school. The school principals post on it has gone viral on Facebook.

  169. Y’all – non-college educated white is apparently an insulting term. Please refrain from using it.


  170. RMS – I don’t really have a rationale. Anti-PC people being PC? I’ve learned this from comments made online in different forums. Uneducated white male is also apparently insulting. See the Mike Rowe meme going around.

  171. I have a question for Meme and Finn(and others of a certain age). They’ve had the internet for as long as I’ve been an adult. Where did people get their crazed nonsense before the internet? Was it all John Birch society news letters and such?

  172. Redneck – I have heard people refer to themselves as that here or as country folks. As in “My Mama and Daddy are country folks”.

  173. CoC = Certificate of Citzenship, which is this incredibly important, very hard to replace document that was shipped to us about 6 months after DD arrived here, and which lives in the safe deposit box. And while Cordelia’s point that citizen=citizen-citizen is true in many ways, the mere fact that some us need to have this document and others do not shows that there are qualifiers on citizenship.

  174. Redneck in only ok as is used to refer to your own people. Otherwise, intensively perjorative.

  175. I actually like Mike Rowe and his sense of humor (and I also have a sense of humor), but this is a bit ridiculous.

    Cordelia – I never heard it that way since I associate it with large chunks of the population that I wouldn’t consider “rednecks”. I associate redneck with Jeff Foxworthy’s comedy, so more of a more southern term. Maybe that is too narrow, but I wouldn’t call a non-college educate white male from my hometown a redneck.

  176. Read my post earlier, about the Hitler Youth/Trump sign. That happened last night to someone I know.

  177. * and to Cordelia’s point I would never call someone a redneck and don’t really think in those terms, but I do like Jeff Foxworthy.

  178. Mooshi, just a random question, how would anyone know you daughter wasn’t born a citizen here? My birth certificate is in a county office several hundred miles away, I don’t know if I have seen it since I got my driver’s license. Aside from showing my passport, I have no proof. Unless she needs a passport, how would it even come up?

  179. Cordelia – Mooshi’s daughter is Asian. Period. That’s enough reason for (some) people to question whether she is American. Really, this is news?

  180. Meme –

    I don’t think he is clueless about judaism or making naive comments. Most of his in-house counsel staff are very observant and adjust their work schedule accordingly (department closes early afternoon Friday and whole department works Sundays). His son-in-law is observant and his daughter converted and is raising his grandchildren jewish. I really think (and fervently hope) that this was him pandering to voters who have long been ignored. A big chunk of them are unemployed or underemployed working class people (including latinos) and he doesn’t mind having the ones that are outright racist vote for him too. This is the guy for whom there is no bad publicity.

  181. If you don’t like the outcome of the election, you might enjoy the Onion for the last day or two.

  182. Uneducated white male also translates to Okie, Arkie, hillbilly, and probably a few others I can come up with if I think about it.

    As an aside, why is the Book of Mormon not considered outrageously offensive?

  183. RMS – I am seriously losing my sense of humor. In addition to everything else this week, my office has moved to buildings and I no longer have an office, only a desk in an open floor plan. Lots of other silly rules to follow as well, all of which is making me very grumpy.

    thanks for the Onion reminder.

  184. That’s enough reason for (some) people to question whether she is American.

    Most people assume everyone who speaks without an accent is an citizen. They would just assume she’s not a natural born citizen.

  185. Cordelia – Mooshi’s daughter is Asian. Period. That’s enough reason for (some) people to question whether she is American. Really, this is news?

    Yes it is. Really. There are lots of people of Asian descent in this country. Their families have been here for generations, if not centuries. I live in the middle of red nowhere, and I cannot fathom someone seeing someone of Asian descent without an accent assuming they are not American. Especially since she is Chinese in an Anglo family, obviously she is adopted and therefore American.

  186. Rhett – Lots of my Asian American friends – who speak accent-less American – often get “where are you from” as a conversation starter and they don’t mean California. It grates.

  187. Book of Mormon is incredibly offensive. That’s its point. It’s also funny. It’s the South Park guys, who are pretty funny but also try with both hands to be as offensive as possible.

  188. Speaking of that. We were watching Anthony Bourdain (I think) and he was down on the Gulf Coast with some of the shimpers that came from Vietnam after the war and starting fishing in the Gulf of Mexico. One of the sons was a somewhat heavy set 20 something in a trucker hat who sounded exactly like Jeff Boomhauer:

    Get’s me a little misty eyed to think what a great country this is.

  189. Here is an article on Mike Rowe’s discussion of the the term uneducated white man.

    As a matter of course, I am always happy to learn what another group perceives as insulting, coded, etc. Given the fact that many people don’t believe that the things I discussed upthread are in fact indicators of anything except my ethnic group’s hypersensitivity, I am willing to give others the benefit of the doubt.

    My father was from Selma Alabama. He was not a redneck, because his father was a schoolteacher. And there was at least one more stratum below redneck, white trash. African Americans feared white trash, who had no white group left to whom they could ascribe and enforce even lower status. But the hard working, churchgoing, and poor African Americans looked down on white trash. They had a wary truce with the rednecks, who also looked down on white trash.

  190. I don’t really have an accent unless you count my upper Midwest one. And when I had my maiden name that mostly only those in my ethnic group have, I was asked all of the time where I was from. Now that I have my husband’s last name, no one asks.

  191. Kerri,

    I saw the clip. I have no words. Did that really get aired? Was it supposed to be funny?

  192. RE the “Where are you from question?” I have heard is rephrased as, “are you from around here?” Although the questions are basically after the same information:
    Do we have common location is that we can discuss, or in my case, Good lord, who are you related to? Is one less offensive that the other, or are both verboten?

  193. So when I would answer where I was from (state in Midwest), the next question would be, “no. I mean where are you frrrrrom”. They didn’t mean in the US. Since changing my last name it had never, ever been asked. Coincidence? I guess maybe.

  194. Although the questions are basically after the same information:

    Here is how I’ve seen it go down. Someone of Asian or South Asian decent is introduced and someone asks, “Where are you from.” They say, “Virginia.” Momentary awkward pause as they realize that ““no. I mean where are you frrrrrom” is totally rude and don’t say it.

  195. It goes along with, are you from New York? Which was a coded inquiry up through the seventies at least. I can recall sitting in my daughters’ dying hospital room with a couple of the elders from the evangelical church who were making conversation and when I answered no, they said, I was sure you were from New York. So I just turned to them and said simply, No, I grew up in Maryland. Not all Jews are from New York. And of course I embarrassed them, but in those circumstances I discarded my manners.

  196. So….you all live in some place where everyone who isn’t Caucasian is assumed to be a noncitizen? How is that even possible?

  197. Cordelia…you and I are both from California. The ask that in California, too — you have seriously never seen it go down?

  198. Cordelia – Lots of Hispanics who have lived in the S/SW for generations, prior to the US even being the US, are assumed to be from “not here”. Eva Longoria (Desperate Housewives fame) has spoken on this. Her family lived in Texas before it was Texas and yet has been questioned if she is American.

  199. So….you all live in some place where everyone who isn’t Caucasian is assumed to be a noncitizen?

    All black people are assumed to be citizens unless they have an accent. South Asians are assumed to be immigrants.

  200. Cordelia…you and I are both from California. The ask that in California, too — you have seriously never seen it go down.

    No, or if I did it was so long ago I’ve forgotten. Maybe the community I live in is so insular that any new face is cause for celebration, and that by the time they have been in two for a few months everyone has their backstory, and they’ve gotten their elevator pitch:

    “I live in this development, my kids are these ages, I work here, spouse works there. We grew up in X town and went to Y story, Yes, I would love to buy a ticket to your fundraiser.”

  201. Have you ever been to Minnesota or North Dakota. I’m an outsider because I’m not tall with blond hair.

  202. I have gotten the where are you from question, less and less frequently over the years.
    I say I lived in Boston for a while before moving here. I in turn ask the person where if they lived here a while or moved from some where else. Basically I make coversation and try to learn something about the person.
    I have not gotten impolite/rude inquires.

  203. Cordelia – Lots of Hispanics who have lived in the S/SW for generations, prior to the US even being the US, are assumed to be from “not here”. Eva Longoria (Desperate Housewives fame) has spoken on this. Her family lived in Texas before it was Texas and yet has been questioned if she is American.

    What do you think causes this? It is ignorance of regional history? I’ll admit my east coast history knowledge is something like, English came over, died a lot, cut down trees, had a revolution, the place got crowded and then people came west.

    One of my colleagues in grad school didn’t know that California had been Spanish, then Mexican, then part of the U.S. And she was from the U.S.

  204. Related to Meme’s comment about hypersensitivity, I have a couple thoughts.
    1) Judaism has existed for millenia as a distinct culture/ethnicity. (Not sure of the right word) No other group has existed so long as a distinct group. If I say I’m German, I’m talking about a country with borders that have changed enough that where my relatives are from has sometimes been German and sometimes not. Maybe the hypersensitivity exists both because the culture is distinct and the hypersensitivity facilitates being culturally distinct.
    2) It’s hard to tell the difference between ignorance and anti-Semitism in some cases. A Jewish acquaintance working at a local grocery store told me a customer wanted to buy a kosher ham for arriving Jewish guests, and the customer didn’t accept the idea that no grocery store sells kosher ham. The acquaintance eventually told the customer the grocery store was “out” of kosher ham. Fortunately, the acquaintance has a sense of humor like mine and found this amusing rather than offensive.

  205. Here is a widely circulated video piece on this subject Someone posted it on the totebag a while ago

  206. “What do you think causes this? It is ignorance of regional history?”

    Well since ‘uneducated’, ‘non-college educated’, and ‘ignorant’ are all insulting terms (apparently), and the choices get more insulting from there, I am not sure how to answer that question. =)

    It also ties into the point Mooshi has made that some view themselves as “real Americans” and others aren’t.

  207. Cordellia,

    I don’t think there were any Asian (or South Asian) people living east of the Rockies prior to the immigration reforms back in the 60s. As such, older people tend to assume all Asians are immigrants because they all were back in the 70/80s.

  208. Here is a widely circulated video piece on this subject Someone posted it on the totebag a while ago

    See, I would view that as a video put out by its creator to make fun of who the creator thinks of as the “uneducated white male”

  209. The acquaintance eventually told the customer the grocery store was “out” of kosher ham.

    That seems sort of mean. Why not just tell them that Jews don’t eat pork unless it’s in Chinese food.

  210. Caucasian is a broad term and includes middle eastern and south Asian people.

    Kate why do you get asked that question? Do you have an accent?

    Do white immigrants also get asked the question as frequently or do they get an indulgent pass because they are white? I bet that they don’t get asked the “where are you from” question at the same rate as non-whites.

  211. Do white immigrants also get asked the question as frequently or do they get an indulgent pass because they are white?

    A German or French immigrant with an accent is going to be asked it way more than a South Asian natural born citizen.

  212. On white immigrants being asked where they are from:
    I am from Eastern Europe and have an accent. I am always asked where my accent is from. The alternative question is “Where are you from?”. Since our town has people moving from all over the country for jobs/corporate relocations I sometimes answer “Philadelphia”, to which I get the follow up “No, I mean originally”. I am not offended as it always seems well intended. The people who have issues with me being an immigrant generally do not engage in a conversation/try to ignore me.

  213. See, I would view that as a video put out by its creator to make fun of who the creator thinks of as the “uneducated white male”

    But that’s so not the point.

  214. “Maybe the hypersensitivity exists both because the culture is distinct and the hypersensitivity facilitates being culturally distinct.”

    Maybe. But I think it has a lot more to do with the “Jews killed Jesus” thing.

    I also think Mike Rowe missed the point when he asked when do you ever hear anyone referring to “uneducated black men”? You don’t hear that phrase because people *assume* that a black man is uneducated; you only need to add the qualifier when you refer to white men, because for them, the assumption is that they *are* educated. So, yes, the phrase is racist, but it runs the other way. It’s the same reason why saying “we are looking for qualified women/minorities” is offensive — you never hear someone say “we’re looking for qualified white men,” because the underlying assumption is that white men are qualified; but women/minorities are assumed to be not qualified, so you need to specify when you are singling out those who are. Or why “white trash” is racist (you never hear people referring to “black trash,” because the assumption is that all minorities are “trash”; but the same assumption is that white folks aren’t trash, so when you are talking about the subset of white folks who are trash, you have to add the clarifier).

  215. I’m kind of crabby about that Rowe article. In case he didn’t notice, the anti-political correctness people won every single bit of the election. So if I say “redneck moron”, well, that’s just saying what everyone is thinking, isn’t it? I mean all this PC shit is for shit. Just say what you think, like we did in the good old days. People’s feelings are just stupid and don’t matter. Grow a pair.

  216. “I don’t think there were any Asian (or South Asian) people living east of the Rockies prior to the immigration reforms back in the 60s. ”

    Near the end of WWII, many Americans of Japanese ancestry were let out of their imprisonment in internment camps and send to destinations east of the Rockies.

    An AJA friend of mine grew up in Texas because here parents were sent there. I first met her over 30 years ago (wow, I’m getting old) in CA, and she still had a strong Texas twang. She’s been in CA since then, and has lost some of that. I also remember a woman of Chinese ancestry who grew up in Arkansas, and spoke English with an accent similar to Bill Clinton’s.

    But IMO, accents are a matter of perspective. I’ve had people here tell me that they’re surprised that I didn’t pick up an accent while living in CA.

  217. I’ve heard from several of my Asian-American friends who were born in the US and often whose families have lived in the US for multiple generations that they frequently get questions like “where did you learn to speak such good English? You don’t have any accent?” or “Where are you from?” and when they answer “Seattle?” get the “no – where are you originally from?” I think it’s the constant implication of “you don’t belong, you’re not from here” that becomes exhausting and frustrating.

    There was a recent article in the Seattle Times where people shared their experiences. It was spurred by an article in the NY Times where an editor (who was born in the US) encountered a woman who yelled at him to go back to China. Both are well worth reading.

  218. “As an aside, why is the Book of Mormon not considered outrageously offensive?”

    I didn’t find it offensive, but perhaps that’s because I’m not Mormon.

    While it poked fun at the Mormons, I didn’t find it mean-spirited at all, and it had a happy ending based on their missionaries being good people with good intentions.

    And afterwards, we were offered real copies of the Book of Mormon by real Mormons.

  219. Finn, maybe my people (Mennonites) and my colleagues (many LDS) can have a sense of humor about such things because we haven’t suffered for a few generations? I remember joking last year about the matzo ball mix/soup/etc. for sale at VERY LOW PRICES at the Mennonite grocery store while “The Old Rugged Cross” played over the loudspeaker.

    I find that funny because the U.S. not only welcomed my draft-dodging Mennonite ancestors, but also accommodated their religious preferences by letting them be ambulance drivers and not infantrymen during the world wars.

  220. I read that story in the NYT, and I was so disgusted. I wasn’t surprised because most of my Asian friends and coworkers have educated me about the discrimination that still exists even in NY.

    I’ve rarely seen it in NYC, but I did see it when I took some members of my team to Chicago for a meeting during a bank merger. One guy was born in Queens (near Trump birth place!!!), and his parents were born in NY. When the Chicago staff spoke to him, they raised their voices. They asked him when he arrived, and he misunderstood and spoke about his arrival at O’hare. They were asking him about his arrival in this country! It was a big misunderstanding, but it was eye opening to me to see that my new colleagues were part of the same bank, but they were still living in their own version of a bubble.

  221. Dell – no accent unless you consider my flat Midwestern accent. But my maiden name was something like Castro and I don’t have blonde hair or blue eyes.

  222. As more and more non white immigrants settle in this country, what are unfamiliar people get more and more familiar. Where someone is from or telling someone to go home will in time become less because your neighbor is like that person.
    Till we moved to this neighborhood, there was only one older couple of my ethnicity who came to this country some forty years ago. They raised their kids in my neighborhood. The kids are now grown with children of their own. In the last four years three more ethnic families have moved in. They are grown children of immigrants who now have kids. This is the changing face of the country. Not all people are comfortable or will react well to the pace of change.

  223. I agree with you Louise because I grew up in NYC, but that is NOT how many parts of the country are populated. I wonder how long it will take for non white immigrants to move beyond the same neighborhoods. The same is true of mixed race families – even in NYC burbs. I often see posts from families that are ready to leave the city for the burbs. They are looking for advice on the local county Facebook page about which towns are best for mixed race families, or religions.

    There is a village near by town, and very close to MM and CoC. It is minutes from the NYC border, but it is 91% white according to the census data. We almost bought an apartment there because the commute is awesome. It was before we had DD, and I took my mother to see the apartment before we made the offer. She said cute town, great commute, but no Jews. This was in this century, and I didn’t know because I was coming from NYC and I was just thinking about commute and walkable town. this was pre Facebook and social media. I didn’t care, but she told me to think about it because it might be an issue some day if we decided to have kids.

    We ended up in a community that is a few minutes away, but our neighborhood is more diverse. It is less than 70% white, and there is a lot of religious diversity. My neighbors on one side are Mormon, and the neighbors on the other side are Muslim. I grew up this way in the city so it is normal for me, but I really don’t think it is typical even in 2016.

  224. “which towns are best for mixed race families”

    My kids have several classmates, and I have a former co-worker, who moved here because they concluded their mixed-race kids would fit in well here, although they had no other connections here.

  225. I don’t know a ton about Asian history within the US, but I know the mining centers of the west ran on Asian labor – at the end of the 19th century. “Busier than a Chinese laundry” is not a modern sentiment. There was some intermarriage, but I am under the impression that when the bottom fell out of the boom towns, the Chinese returned to China. I also know there were a lot of interment camps in the west – so there must have been a lot of Japanese prior to 1960.

    Polly Bemis did not leave at the end of the boom and there is a ranch that bears her name in Idaho. She was rumored to have been won in a Poker Game, though wikipedia says that’s not true.

  226. Late to this discussion but think that some are being too hard on people who ask “where are you from?” Many people, for reasons beyond their control, have had limited exposure to those of other races or ethnic groups. Our parents grew up in white working class neighborhoods. They didn’t know any blacks or Jews or Asians or Hispanics or Muslim, so when they met our college friends and colleagues and DC neighbors there would often be questions about last names or accents or where people were from. Their questions sometimes made us cringe but any offense was largely from ignorance rather than malice. The diversity that our children, and many of you, take for granted is not necessarily a reflection of any moral superiority but simply a result of having been born and raised in different circumstances.

  227. Thoughts on marriage – my ethnic community usually opposes or frowns on marriages outside their very specific communities.
    Yet, I know of children of immigrants marrying people of other races and communities and raising biracial children. Not an easy thing to do if your family doesn’t support your partner.

    A thought on Melania Trump as First Lady.
    She will be following Michelle Obama who was educated at elite institutions of our country and was an high ranking executive before she entered the White House. In eight years Mrs. Obama has gained worldwide recognition and popularity.
    Melania doesn’t have the advantage of the same education or work situation and following a popular First Lady is a hard act to follow.

  228. Thoughts on marriage – my ethnic community usually opposes or frowns on marriages outside their very specific communities.
    Yet, I know of children of immigrants marrying people of other races and communities and raising biracial children. Not an easy thing to do if your family doesn’t support your partner.

    I wonder how many generations in the U.S. it takes before it is ok to marry outside your ethnicity. I remember my grandmother being very concerned about my siblings, cousins and I marrying nonIrish people. All of her children married Irish Catholics. I think some of the spouses in law, cousins in law have some Irish descent, but most not. As it happens, many of us married people whose grandparents were also concerned about their grandkids marrying outside their ethnic group. So far, only one divorce in my generation in thirty years.

  229. There was some intermarriage, but I am under the impression that when the bottom fell out of the boom towns, the Chinese returned to China.

    Chinese labor was an integral part of building the transcontinental railroad. While some went back, I think a substantial portion stayed.

  230. The Chinese Exclusion Act was passed in 1882 and was in force until 1943. It prohibited Chinese immigration totally.

    The original United States Naturalization Law of March 26, 1790 limited naturalization to immigrants who were free white persons of good character. It thus excluded American Indians, indentured servants, slaves, free blacks, and Asians.

    The Naturalization Act of 1870 extended the naturalization process to “aliens of African nativity and to persons of African descent.” Due to anti-Chinese sentiment in the western states other non-white persons were not included in this act and remained excluded from naturalization, per the Naturalization Act of 1790.

    In addition to setting quotas that restricted limited European immigration to the national percentages in 1890, effectively excluding most Eastern and Southern Europeans, the Immigration Act of 1924 barred immigration of all persons from the Asia–Pacific Triangle, which included Japan, China, the Philippines (then under U.S. control), Siam (Thailand), French Indochina (Laos, Vietnam, and Cambodia), Singapore (then a British colony), Korea, the Dutch East Indies (Indonesia), Burma (Myanmar), India, Ceylon (Sri Lanka) and Malaya (mainland part of Malaysia).[17]. There were no limits on persons from Latin America or Canada.

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