Election 2016, July 31–August 6

The conventions are done, and now the next phase of the campaign has begun.  Share you political comments here.

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205 thoughts on “Election 2016, July 31–August 6

  1. I’m enjoying the #TrumpSacrifices stuff on Twitter and Facebook.

  2. He really will go after absolutely anyone, won’t he? That little voice that would whisper to a normal candidate “respect the service / sacrifice, but disagree on policy” just isn’t there for him.

  3. Attacking the mother of a fallen soldier is just not done. It is like trying to erase Mom in Mom and Apple pie.

  4. Anyone seeing many bumper stickers from either candidate in your area? There are some for Bernie, but virtually none for Clinton or Trump here. Probably more faded Obama stickers than current ones.

  5. Scarlett – I have seen two Hillary lawn signs. One sign is now gone, one remains.

  6. I have seen a few Trump signs in my conservative suburban neighborhood, but only 2–3. None for Hillary. I think the HOA bans them unless it’s within a certain amount of time of the election. My Uber driver in LA had multiple inside his car. Sadly for him, that deterred me from leaving a tip.

  7. I have seen no Trump signs, and one Hillary bumper sticker. Regarding Trump, I thought he had jumped the shark when he attacked John McCain for his POW experience. He’s still here, though.

  8. The best bumper sticker that I have seen this year said “2016: Everybody sucks”

  9. I thought he had jumped the shark when he attacked John McCain for his POW experience.

    me too

  10. I am not surprised at all that he attacked the Khans. He is so thin skinned and doesn’t see the humanity in people. It is interesting that the only person that he hasn’t gone after is Michelle. Everyone else seems to be fair game.

  11. I haven’t seen many bumper stickers yet. I didn’t see many in the primary except for Bernie either though. I haven’t seen any for the local/state elections either though. We have a pretty big US Senate race this year, so I imagine since we are a solidly blue state for President that the ad spend here will be on that.

    @Houston – Yes. I thought that he was done when he put down McCain, but he’s still here. Still saying ridiculous things. It seems he was right when he said he could shoot someone in Times Square and he’d still be winning.

  12. ” It is interesting that the only person that he hasn’t gone after is Michelle.”

    I have been wondering about that too. During the DNC she was the only person that he didn’t tweet about at all.

    I don’t understand how any woman or veteran or non-white person could vote for him, but I guess if you are a die-hard Republican, what do you do? My conservative friends are pretty conflicted. Right now, a lot of them seem to be considering Johnson.

  13. Most of my evangelical friends are sitting this out, but I know one woman, who I had always admired for her commitment to her evangelical values, who has just come out for Trump. Her justification is that God can work through non-Christians. I just don’t get it. She has adopted children from overseas, none of whom are white. How can she overlook his racism? And how can she know that God is working through Trump?

  14. Veterans, like the rest of us, have to choose between a man who makes thoughtless and intemperate remarks to the family of a fallen soldier, and a woman who oozed sympathy and compassion to the families of murdered contractors while lying to them about the circumstances of their deaths. Whose extreme carelessness with classified material may have put them and others at risk.
    Not much of a choice. And fwiw I think it was unconscionable for Kahn and the Clinton campaign to further traumatize the mom to make political points. And what sacrifices has Clinton made, anyhow?

  15. , have to choose between a man who makes thoughtless and intemperate remarks to the family of a fallen soldier,

    There is also the three wives, the numerous bankruptcies, the secrets hidden in his tax returns….

  16. And the total lack of understanding of any foreign or domestic policies. I really wish Kasich had taken him up on the offer to run everything. I admire Kasich for not doing so, but, man, we need some normal people around Trump.

  17. I would imagine that Pence has made his peace with the fact that he made his deal with the devil and tries very hard to not think about what Trump says.

  18. Winemama said I don’t see how any veteran could vote for Trump. One word Benghazi. Many Veterans also have an in depth understanding of the classified information that was emailed and if any of them had done what she did they would be in jail.

  19. The lure of power of a VP spot trumps all else I guess!

    When Trump behaves this way when he is trying to put his best foot forward, wonder what he will do when/if he actually is in the position of power.

  20. This post made it to my FB page yesterday. It’s only one veteran’s personal glimpse into Hillary’s character, but it affirms what has been said by many Secret Service agents over the years:

    I’m not Voting for Clinton.

    It has nothing to do with her views. It really doesn’t even matter about all the laws she broke.

    It’s because She actually talked to me once. Almost a sentence. But first, some background.

    Being a K9 handler in the Military I got to do a few details involving Distinguished Visitors. Mostly Generals, DOD Officials, and Secretaries of Defense. I was lucky enough to pull two awesome details. George W Bush, and Obama.

    GW looked at me, said “Man, who’d you piss off” high fived me, and continued on. I was climbing down from a catwalk I stood on for 4 hours with nothing but Dust and a radio to keep me company. The radio died early on. It was pretty sweet.

    Obama, as he was walking out to his plane in Turkey, said “What the hell kind of dog is that?!” In reference to Suli.

    One of my Last details was for Hillary when she was Secretary of State. She was in Turkey for whatever reason. I helped with sweeps of her DV Quarters and staff vehicles. Her words to me? “Get that Fucking dog away from me.” Then she turns to her Security Detail and berates them up and down about why that animal was in her quarters. For the next 20 minutes while I sit there waiting to be released she lays into her detail, slamming the door in their faces when she’s done. The Detail lead walks over apologizes and releases me. I apologize to him for getting him in trouble. His words “Happens every day, Brother”
    Hillary doesn’t care about anyone but Hillary.

    When you hear accounts like this, it hurts in the “shares your values” factor.

  21. “Many Veterans also have an in depth understanding of the classified information that was emailed and if any of them had done what she did they would be in jail.”

    this is what my FIL says (Trump supporter)

  22. “How was the beach?”

    Very nice, but hot as Hell. And then what a relief it was to swim in the ocean water that was 86 degrees.

  23. So the fact that Hillary doesn’t care for dogs very much is somehow worse than the fact that Trump doesn’t seem to care for former POWs? That is how I am reading the opinion expressed in Milo’s post, anyway. I get that there are reasons that one might not want to vote for Hillary, but being foul mouthed around a dog seems to not nearly be as offensive as attacking the family of a slain soldier.

  24. Oh Milo, that was the lamest excuse I ever read (in context). What Trump says daily and he behaves is far worse than that incident. If that veteran is going to base his vote on which candidate apparently cares most about themselves, Trump beats Hillary hands down. I think he just wants to vote for Trump because certain aspects of Trump’s policy just appeals to his inner self. The rest is just trying to put lipstick on a pig.

    For the record, my Facebook feed is full of personal testimonies of Hillary going to bat for people etc etc.

  25. I read Milo’s story as she lacks respect for the people working around/with her

  26. Rocky – The Post is just recounting the details of the book. That author (if I’m remembering him correctly), has written a lot about Secret Service dealings over the past 50 years, and if he’s a good-enough source to believe Nixon’s paranoia and endless nights wandering the halls talking to pictures, he’s good enough to believe this. His criticisms and praises are not party-specific. Additionally, it’s not a single data point but a definite trend with Hillary.

  27. I have no idea how Hillary is one on one. Everyone who I know who has worked for her thinks she is awesome. And, Trump has some employees who claim the same thing about him. But you just cannot compare how they conduct themselves on the public stage. Trump cannot keep it together ever. He attacks and mocks and dehumanizes people. I find that very concerning for a person who will need to deal with complex situations and less than perfect conditions where people won’t just be yes men to him. We know that Hillary isn’t a loose cannon. Girlfriend has been hanging in there for some many years and been attacked by everyone. She is very tough. The same cannot be said of Trump.

  28. Milo – I agree with Dell, really lame. For goodness sake, Mitt Romney strapped his dog (in a carrier) to the roof of a car on a road trip and it died. (Thank you Gail Collins.)

  29. “and it died”

    lol. No it didn’t. Well, years later it did, of course.

    We all have legitimate reasons to hate the opposite candidate. I’m tired of arguing them.

  30. I was at dinner on Friday with a woman who said she’d never vote for Hillary because of the way she treated the women who accused her husband of sexual assault.

    I wanted to ask my friend how HRC was supposed to treat them? Believe them over her husband? Coddle them publicly and shame her husband?

    2016 will definitely be one for the history books.

  31. “I wanted to ask my friend how HRC was supposed to treat them? Believe them over her husband?”

    Would you believe Bill Clinton in those circumstances?

    Do you believe Bill Cosby?

  32. /i/ “I wanted to ask my friend how HRC was supposed to treat them? Believe them over her husband?”

    Would you believe Bill Clinton in those circumstances?

    Do you believe Bill Cosby?
    /-i/

    Rhode is married to Cosby?

  33. No, I do not believe Bill COsby, but if his wife chooses to believe him instead of his accusers, I would be sympathetic to her.

  34. Mooshi – And you’re sympathetic even though Hillary actively worked to discredit and tarnish the reputations–the “bimbo eruptions”–of Bill’s rape victims?

    I don’t know how any feminist can vote for Hillary.

  35. Mooshi, I agree that not knowing about Ukraine is a much bigger deal, but nothing about Trump ever seems to follow logic. The fact that conservatives are pissed about Trump’s diss of a “Gold Star Mother” makes it bigger news. But yeah, events in Ukraine were all over the news and pretty unavoidable as Russia moved in. Not knowing about that, even the hazy outline, says a lot about how much a person generally pays attention to world affairs generally.

    Kate, I don’t know anyone personally who has worked for HRC, but I’ve seen a couple pieces talking about her strength as a politician is (obviously) not oratory skill, but that she is really amazing at listening to people, putting their concerns into a framework for action, and combining what she has heard from lots of people, whether other legislators or people she met on her “listening” tour across the country. Empathy is not a stadium skill, so we don’t see it when she speaks.

    I hadn’t heard that HRC is freaked out by dogs. Pretty shallow of the K9 handler not to recognize that not everyone has the same feelings he does about them, and to take her comments personally instead of recognizing the situation and doing what he could to help her feel better. I know plenty of “dog people” who are the same way, just like some people are way into running and don’t get that it isn’t pleasant for some of us.

  36. As pure speculation, I’m going to guess that Putin and Julian Assange aren’t yet done with Hillary. As one commenter wrote a few months ago, if Putin’s spies did NOT get all the emails from Hillary’s private server a few years ago, then they should have been fired for gross incompetence. I’m thinking if they had the DNC emails, they have Hillary’s from her time as Secretary of State. They’re just waiting until the election is closer. That, or they’re going to blackmail the Clintons over them, and that’s scary to imagine.

  37. huh, I didn’t see that. I guess my speculation was rather obvious. :)

    Well, this should be interesting.

  38. If something really incriminating comes out of wiki leaks, I will vote for Johnson

    What would you consider incriminating?

  39. Dell – Would this be enough?:

    As Gateway Pundit’s Jim Hoft notes, in her testimony in January 2013 during the congressional Benghazi hearings, Clinton denied under oath having any knowledge of the weapons trade program with Syrian rebels that took place a year before the Benghazi attack. Now Assange says that in the collection of hacked emails his group has procured, 17,000 are “about Libya alone,” and among them is proof that Clinton “pushed” for weapons to be sent to “jihadists within Syria, including ISIS.”

    Proof that the Democratic presidential nominee helped arm ISIS? Not exactly the kind of “experience” the Clinton campaign has been touting. And, of course, this is just more evidence that Clinton’s 2013 Benghazi testimony was riddled with lies.

    During that testimony, Clinton told Sen. Rand Paul that she didn’t have “any information” on any weapons transfer program with insurgent groups in Turkey or elsewhere run out of Libya.”

    Not so much the arming, as that can always get dicey and turn against you, so I wouldn’t even necessarily blame her for that (although I’m sure she’d prefer not to explain it on the debate stage). But the lying in Congressional testimony…

  40. Of course, if it has anything at all to do with Libya, Syria, or ISIS, then it’s obviously NOT about yoga and Chelsea’s wedding.

  41. “I don’t know how any feminist can vote for Hillary.”

    And I don’t know how any feminist could not given the alternative. I am pretty sure that Hillary will work to support the feminist agenda.

  42. And you’re sympathetic even though Hillary actively worked to discredit and tarnish the reputations–the “bimbo eruptions”–of Bill’s rape victims?

    Bill Clinton is an absolute cad, but I don’t consider Gennifer Flowers, Monica Lewinsky et. al. “rape victims.”

  43. This whole thing with Russian hackers, and WikiLeaks, and the sense that foreign powers are meddling, is giving me massive heebie-jeebies. My DH has the possiblity of a job transfer to Singapore – maybe it is time to press for that.

  44. “And I don’t know how any feminist could not given the alternative.”

    There’s more than one alternative.

  45. “Bill Clinton is an absolute cad, but I don’t consider Gennifer Flowers, Monica Lewinsky et. al. “rape victims.””

    How about all the others? E..g., Juanita Broaddrick?

  46. “but I don’t consider Gennifer Flowers, Monica Lewinsky et. al. ‘rape victims.’ ”

    the “et. al” is the problem.

    How would you characterize this account from Juanita Broaddrick?

    “Then he tries to kiss me again. And the second time he tries to kiss me he starts biting my lip … He starts to, um, bite on my top lip and I tried to pull away from him. And then he forces me down on the bed. And I just was very frightened, and I tried to get away from him and I told him ‘No,’ that I didn’t want this to happen but he wouldn’t listen to me. … It was a real panicky, panicky situation. I was even to the point where I was getting very noisy, you know, yelling to ‘Please stop.’ And that’s when he pressed down on my right shoulder and he would bite my lip. … When everything was over with, he got up and straightened himself, and I was crying at the moment and he walks to the door, and calmly puts on his sunglasses. And before he goes out the door he says ‘You better get some ice on that.’ And he turned and went out the door.”

    When asked if there was any way Clinton could have thought it was consensual, Broaddrick said “No, not with what I told him and with how I tried to push him away. It was not consensual.”

    Broaddrick shared the hotel room with her friend and employee Norma Rodgers. Rodgers attended a conference seminar that morning, and says she returned to their room to find Broaddrick on the bed “in a state of shock,” her pantyhose torn in the crotch and her lip swollen as though she had been hit. Rogers says Broaddrick told her Clinton had “forced himself on her.”[4] Rogers helped Broaddrick ice her lip, and then the women left Little Rock. Rogers said that Broaddrick was very upset on the way home and blamed herself for letting Clinton in the room.

    That seems like rape to me. Is she lying? Just another trailer trash bimbo, as Hillary refers to them?

    there’s more:

    Three weeks after the alleged assault, Broaddrick participated in a small Clinton fundraiser at the home of a local dentist. Broaddrick said she was “in denial,” and felt guilty, thinking that she had given Clinton the wrong idea by letting him into her room. When she arrived at the event, she says, her friend who had picked the Clintons up from the airport told her that Hillary Clinton had asked if she would be at the event. Broaddrick says Clinton did not speak to her at the event, but his wife Hillary approached her, took her hand, and said ‘I just want you to know how much Bill and I appreciate what you do for him.” When Broaddrick moved her hand away, she says, Mrs. Clinton held on to her and said, “Do you understand? Everything that you do.” Broaddrick says she felt nauseated and left the gathering. Broaddrick says she interpreted the incident as Mrs. Clinton thanking her for keeping quiet.

    In 1984, Broaddrick’s nursing facility was adjudged the best in the state, which brought a congratulatory official letter from the governor. On the bottom was a handwritten note from Clinton, saying, “I admire you very much.” Broaddrick said that in 1991, Clinton called her out of a state nursing standards meeting to try to apologize. In response to his apologies, as she told The Washington Post, “I told him to go to hell, and I walked off”. Darden also attended the meeting, and said she saw Broaddrick talking to Clinton in the hallway. Clinton announced his 1992 presidential campaign soon after the alleged interaction.

    And if she’s lying, is Paula Jones, who described a very similar pattern of behavior, also lying? At some point, doesn’t it start to seem like Clinton actually is a rapist, and Hillary was eager to destroy his victims?

  47. We know that Hillary isn’t a loose cannon.”

    Perhaps not.
    But we also know that she cannot be trusted with classified material, and that she is comfortable lying under oath, to the families of slain government employees, and to the American public.

    We all know that neither is a perfect candidate, and it’s really a contest of the lesser of two evils. So it is entirely conceivable that feminists and prolife Catholics will vote for Clinton, and that veterans and racial minorities will vote for Trump. If you can believe the former, why is the latter such a stretch?

  48. The problem with most of the allegations against Clinton is that a lot of it appears on very partisan websites, put out there by people who have an obvious political interest in pushing these accusations. However, there is a good article on Vox, which boils it down to one accuser, and does make the case that she should be listened to.
    http://www.vox.com/2016/1/6/10722580/bill-clinton-juanita-broaddrick

    Just to be fair, there are a number of rape accusations popping up against Trump, again often promulgated on partisan sites
    http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/what-we-know-about-newest-rape-allegations-against-donald-trump

    I think the Ivanka Trump accusation needs to be taken at least somewhat seriously, since she did make the accusation in a sworn deposition. She later recanted – but that is not unusual for victims. One of the main points of the Vox article, in fact, is that you shouldn’t discount allegations simply because an alleged victim has denied the claim or stayed silent. Who knows what really happened?

    I think this is stuff worth thinking about – but with regard to Hillary’s reactions, I need something more than rumors on partisan sites.

  49. Scarlett – oh, I can definitely believe it. I may vehemently disagree with their reasoning, but I can definitely believe this election is crazy and who really knows what will happen. I do think Trump has a very difficult time getting to 270. He pretty much needs to win Ohio, Pennsylvania and Florida. Hillary only needs to win one.

  50. “This whole thing with Russian hackers, and WikiLeaks, and the sense that foreign powers are meddling, is giving me massive heebie-jeebies.”

    Crazy, isn’t it? It’s almost like people who deal with Classified and Top Secret information should actually have to take seriously the cyber-security precautions. Who knew?

  51. I could never vote for Johnson, since I have great difficulties with Libertarianism. If something horrifying and believeable emerged about Hillary, I would have to do what most of my evangelical friends are doing now – voting down ticket, maybe writing someone in.

  52. Milo, doesn’t it bother you that a foreign power would want to see Trump elected enough to meddle in our affairs?

  53. MM, doesn’t it bother you that the former Secretary of State was careless enough with classified materials to put them within easy reach of a foreign power interested in meddling in our affairs?

  54. “I do think Trump has a very difficult time getting to 270. He pretty much needs to win Ohio, Pennsylvania and Florida. Hillary only needs to win one.”

    One analysis I read was that if he wins Romney’s states, plus OH, PA, and I’m forgetting the third they said…WI? MI?, then that would be enough. Florida, with a lot of electoral votes, would eliminate the need for winning all those other three.

    But the bigger picture is that the polling process incorporates a big variable of prediction on who will turn out, and I don’t think there’s any model to really predict that when both candidates have such high negative ratings. So I’d say that the current polls and predictions have never been this useless in our lifetimes.

  55. “Milo, doesn’t it bother you that a foreign power would want to see Trump elected enough to meddle in our affairs?”

    Why would you assume that Putin doesn’t have an opinion and preference, and why would you assume that he doesn’t have spies digging for whatever they can find?

    Whether it *bothers* me is a moot point. Of course they’re always spying, and why wouldn’t he try to meddle?

  56. HRC is a hawk. We know that she will continue the wars. It is unlikely that Trump would stop them, and quite likely that he would start more without much consideration. It is also possible that other countries would start wars if he continues to speak publicly about info from classified briefings like he did in the rally after his first one ever the other day.
    Domestically, HRC would work for equality, recognizing and trying to heal divisions in the country. Trump would continue hatred and division, while denying that any exist.
    To me, the choice is clear.

  57. “A July 17 Wall Street Journal/NBC News national poll found that 82 percent of Latino registered voters view Trump unfavorably and three out of four said they plan to vote for Democrat Hillary Clinton. A Univision poll the week before the Republican National Convention found that 67 percent of Hispanic voters support Clinton compared to 19 percent for Trump. And 73 percent believe the Republican nominee is racist.”

    http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/politics/2016/07/26/for-2nd-time-this-month-trump-calls-off-event-with-latino-leaders-in-miami/

    I have no doubt that some Hispanics will vote for Trump, especially wealthy Cubans. But I don’t think HIspanics are going to Trump en masse.

  58. Most of my relatives don’t think that our race or sex is important to our voting patterns, any more than whether we’re left or right-handed is important. Not everyone views the world as strongly through the lens of race and sex as the commenters in the NY Times.

  59. “this is a fun little interactive map”

    yes, but you have to really know your geography of the middle of the country to make it useful. :)

  60. Yes, it helps that I am from there. I get more confused about all of the NE states. Who can tell the difference between Vermont and NH?

  61. only because I lived in upstate NY and it wasn’t a bad drive to Killington in VT. Also, Portsmouth, NH has a shipyard, so it needs to be closer to the water. :)

  62. “Domestically, HRC would work for equality, recognizing and trying to heal divisions in the country.”

    Right.

    “ANDERSON COOPER: Which enemy that you made during your political career are you most proud of?

    CLINTON: Well, in addition to the NRA, the health insurance companies, the drug companies, the Iranians; probably the Republicans.”

    But perhaps she has “evolved.”

  63. “Who can tell the difference between Vermont and NH?”
    Easy. Vermont is full of liberal hippies and NH is full of libertarians :-)

  64. Vermont is shaped like a “V” with the wider part at the top. So says my 8yo who did a LOT of map-making in Montessori preschool.

    I read a theory that Trump will win the rust belt states that have been blue in the past while Hillary will win some states in the South & West that have been red, with Hillary winning in total. Interesting, but I don’t know.

    I feel like this is all such a circus that it is impossible to predict what will happen in the next 3 months.

  65. I think it will all depend on the turnout from the many voters who don’t have any bumper stickers on their cars.

  66. “Portsmouth, NH has a shipyard, so it needs to be closer to the water. :)”

    Kate – that’s pretty much the only reason I remember which one is NH too!

    MM – on minorities voting for Trump. I’ve been privileged (lucky?) enough to flow between multiple socioeconomic circles. And in my (somewhat biased and small sample size) quick poll of people I know, people do not vote in their best interest. I’ve noted people voting for candidates who clearly state they will remove funding that supports the voter, who clearly state they will restrict rights for the voter. These voters also tend to support that candidate loudly (if FB can be considered “loudly”).

    Next weekend I’m going to a family picnic. I think the majority of my dad’s family support Trump, even though Trump’s statements and policies are not in their best interests. Or they don’t understand Trump’s statements and policies (far enough, they guy speaks worse that the toddlers in our group). And from what FB tells me, their support of Trump doesn’t stem from a dislike or hatred of Hillary, just that they think he’s the better candidate.

  67. “I think it will all depend on the turnout from the many voters who don’t have any bumper stickers on their cars.”

    Oh, you mean me?? The unaffiliated voter who keeps her political opinions to herself (with the exception of the Totebag and with a few like- and opposite-minded friends who know how to have civil discussions).

  68. I learned the V for Vermont when I was a kid, so I could label a map correctly. But I could accurately draw middle America from memory. Not so with the NE. I still need to think very hard about how Va, Md and DC fit together.

  69. When I moved to the midwest, I had to consciously remember that Indiana is BETWEEN Illinois and Ohio.

  70. Scarlett, the NRA is the only one of those groups that I would consider to be involved in major divisions in the US

  71. The only states I have trouble with are the ones too small to have their own piece on the states puzzle.

  72. Saac – there are political divisions in this country, and a presidential candidate who has declared that all the members of one of the two major political parties are her enemies is not someone who appears likely to–or even interested in–healing the divisions in our country.

  73. “And in my (somewhat biased and small sample size) quick poll of people I know, people do not vote in their best interest.”

    True. I have rich friends who support Democrats, despite their promise to raise taxes on the rich. And some Jews ask why Jewish voters consistently vote Democratic.

    “The Torah is not a left-wing document. It opposes abortion and opposes same-sex marriage. It does not believe in a grand welfare system, but in private charity. It dictates belief that Israel was promised to the Jews, and that the Jews have a responsibility to live ethically according to a set of specific behavioral guidelines. Judaism is conservative, in the modern parlance. Those who pretend to back both Judaism and left-wing values are betraying Torah Judaism. Which is why while Jews vote three to one for Democrats, Orthodox Jews vote nearly two to one for Republicans.

    Now, there are older Jews who vote leftist because they remember the bad old days of country club Republicans who rejected them from the golf course, and don’t realize that things have changed rather dramatically. There are older Jews who vote leftist because they remember the legacy of European Christianity that preyed on Jews for centuries, and don’t realize that American Christians are Jews’ best friends, not the American left that stands by President Obama.

    But by and large, most Jews vote leftist because they are upper middle class agnostics with above-average levels of post-graduate education who believe that religion is a great ill, that Biblical morality is intolerant and vicious, and that Judaism itself is passé.

    Jews who care about actual Judaism don’t vote leftist. And those who prioritize leftism don’t vote Jewish.” http://www.truthrevolt.org/videos/ben-shapiro-why-jews-vote-leftist

    I think it works in all segments of society. It is not just Trump supporters who appear to be voting against their own interests.

  74. WCE, we had a wooden states puzzle. It is testimony to my mom’s fastidiousness that not even Rhode Island ever went missing.

  75. Milo, how do political differences materially affect anyone’s chances in life?

  76. Saac – I’m not sure what you mean, or what you’re implying. I guess I’d say that based on the politics of one’s family and community, one could certainly be more likely to consider and enter some professions and avoid others.

    Separate matter for the group, I thought this was interesting at first:
    http://money.cnn.com/2016/07/31/investing/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-stock-market/index.html?iid=hp-stack-dom

    You don’t have to read it (you probably won’t, anyway) but it just says that the price movement of the S&P500 over the next quarter is a good predictor of the Presidential election outcome. If the price goes up, the incumbent party will retain the White House. If the price goes down, voters will throw the party out. They thought it was sound because it was correct in both events 80-something percent of the time.

    I thought this was kind of stupid, mainly because stock prices USUALLY go up, and I thought the general consensus was that incumbent Presidents are usually reelected (but not incumbent parties). So I did my own analysis of the data (which goes back to 1944 for that article’s analysis). At the very least, you’d expect it to be correct 50% of the time, so it shouldn’t be too difficult to add another 30%.

    There have been 18 Presidential elections since 1944. In 12 of those 18 (two thirds), an incumbent President was running for reelection (or in the cases of ’48, ’64, and ’76, running as an incumbent President following succession). Of those 12 cases, a full three quarters were reelected (9/12). The only times an incumbent President lost were 76, 80, and 92. (I’m guessing that stock prices did fall during the 3Q of 80 and 92, which gives some credence to the article.)

    But an incumbent party is definitely not the same as an incumbent President. Of the six elections in which neither candidate was the sitting President (52, 60, 68, 88, 00, and 08), only George H.W. Bush managed to win a successive term for the party that held the White House.

  77. It seems like a fair criticism of Trump. Why do you think that’s a strange bedfellow?

  78. I meant me–it’s pretty rare for me to be in bed with a veteran of a foreign war, but I agree with their organization here. Allen West does as well.

  79. I don’t think republican Christians are free pints of Jews any more than they were half a century ago. For me, many on the republican side ( the religious side) epitomize the Duggars in a way! And like their future son-in-law promises to “save” his fellow Catholics, so will the religious mind d republican.
    And there is a difference between being traditional and not believing in abortion etc (like me) and voting for people who impose their own arbitrary religious beliefs on others. So no, they are not voting against their own interests.

  80. I think many rich people vote for Dems because they think it does benefit them from a big picture standpoint. For the most part, I think the clash between rich Dems and rich Republicans is the difference of opinion of the appropriate role of government and how we go about getting there. Most aren’t voting for higher taxes out of the goodness of their hearts.

  81. “Most aren’t voting for higher taxes out of the goodness of their hearts.”

    But some are. One of my friends is definitely in the 1%, but believes that he and others in his position should pay higher taxes to help out those who are struggling.

  82. I feel that way, too. Because I think it is the only to have a functioning, moral society. Not because I am a generous person. Quite frankly, if our taxes went down, I am certain that I wouldn’t give the same delta amount to charity because I don’t think that is how society should or can work.

  83. I agree with the general principle, but so few of my tax dollars go to social programs. Sigh.

  84. I think I am similar to Kate in my views. I vote for policies that are likely to make my taxes higher, not because I am a wonderful generous person, or because I masochistically want to vote against my interests. Rather, I believe that a well ordered society, where everyone has access to good education and healthcare, is in my interest. And further, because I am a liberal, I believe that government intervention is the most efficient way to get there, and that requires enough taxes. Of course, I also believe in an educated citizenry that pays attention to what government programs are doing, and demands accountability and efficiency.

    I think most conservatives also share my vision of a fair, decent, well ordered society but differ on how we get there. However, I don’t think libertarians, at least hardcore libertarians, share that vision.

  85. I think you have to be a good way’s into One Percent Land, not just on the threshold, to really be at risk of having your income taxes raised. Even when Obama was pushing for this, the point of contention was somewhere around $400k, and that, of course, is on any income above that, after the $50k or $100k those people are siphoning to retirement plans, etc.

    I don’t see Hillary being eager to change that. The debate will likely start at $450k, at least. I’m sure you’re sick of me pointing this out, but it was very telling just how unprogressive Totebaggy Democrats were when they vigorously revolted against Obama’s plan to do away with 529s. So while people might say “oh sure, we’ve been very fortunate, I don’t mind paying more,” I don’t think they actually mean it.

    The upper middle class will smugly coast along unscathed under Hillary, and even better for people like us, the favorable treatment of retirement savings, college savings, and capital gains will continue. If they raise rates on the latter, it will probably only apply to those in the $500k+ or $1M+ annual income categories. And even then, there’s always deferment.

  86. Milo, income taxes are only one kind of tax. The states we choose to live in also impact our taxes a lot.

  87. That’s true. There’s simply no way I could survive where you are. I’d need to go into CT.

  88. My HHI is in the category that Milo thinks could be affected. I received my Hillary sign today. Certainly most Totebaggers were better off on a year-by-year basis with the Bush tax cuts.

  89. This is interesting. If we’re going to spend huge amounts of money subsidizing solar projects that have no hope of ever making a profit, don’t produce much power, don’t work at night, and fry birds, the least we can do is offer the same treatment to carbon-free power that actually works on a large scale.

    http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2016/08/ny_xxx_ratepayer_subsidy_of_up_to_7_billion_to_save_upstate_nukes.html

    “ALBANY, N.Y. – The state Public Service Commission today decided to guarantee three Upstate nuclear power plants hundreds of millions in additional revenue, over 12 years, to keep the plants from shutting down. All four commissioners voted yes.
    The historic decision reflects a judgment by state officials that nuclear power, like wind and solar, now represents a vital environmental asset that can help cut greenhouse gas emissions.”

  90. So you are for or against the subsidy for the 3 nuclear plants?

    You may be surprised to hear this, but I am not anti nuclear power in general. I have a problem with the location of some of the plants (Indian Point comes immediately to mind), and I think the economics are such that nuclear power will not be the future any time soon, because it is too expensive to build new plants. But I think nuclear power generated by existing plants plays a role.

  91. Milo, we chose to live in NY over CT very consciously. My DH actually works in CT. He is also a native of CT, and I lived there for about 10 years. We are very aware of the pros and cons of living in CT vs NY, and have not regretted it at all.

  92. The subsidy is one of those strange bedfellows for me. Idealistically, I’m opposed, but practically, if we collectively decide that we want a substantial amount of carbon-free energy, and we’re willing to subsidize it, it’s the best choice.

    I’m not at all surprised that you’re not anti-nuke. You’re liberal, but sensible.

    “We chose NY over CT very consciously”

    I know, I know, the septic tank. And the aesthetic opposition to sidewalks. :)

  93. “You could survive in New York, but you might have to live in a smaller house.”

    That would be fine. The bigger issue is that early’ish retirement would be off the table.

  94. I see a couple other major differences between the liberals and conservatives that I know.
    1) Willingness to distinguish between the “deserving” poor and the “undeserving” poor. One uncle (not the slumlord) has volunteered hundreds or thousands of hours with Habitat for Humanity, in part because of the sweat equity requirement. Contrast Habitat for Humanity with Section 8.
    2) Willingness to prioritize the well-being of people in the US (including illegal immigrants) over poor people overseas in their arguments to “care about the poor.” I care at least somewhat about the poor, and my checkbook reflects that, but I am far more concerned about the poor of Africa, India and North Korea than I am about the poor in the United States, especially healthy US citizen poor.

  95. WCE – I agree with you re: 1. I am curious as to 2. How do you see this in practice? You think conservatives worry more about the poor in other countries? Or am I reading that wrong?

  96. Kate, the conservatives I know worry about the poor in other countries. One guy I know (civil engineer with sanitation emphasis) designed water systems as a volunteer for villages in Africa. Another family organizes support for homes for widows/orphans in India.

    The idea that tax dollars should go to support social programs in the US, because otherwise people won’t care about the poor, seems very liberal to me.

  97. WCE – interesting. I wonder if this is a difference in locations. I know a lot of people who work for NGOs/non-profits who do a lot of work in developing countries (public health, water, vaccines, etc.). They are almost all very liberal. A few of them have started non-profits to focus on those types of issues. And more than one has moved to those countries for periods of time.

  98. 1) Willingness to distinguish between the “deserving” poor and the “undeserving” poor. One uncle (not the slumlord) has volunteered hundreds or thousands of hours with Habitat for Humanity, in part because of the sweat equity requirement. Contrast Habitat for Humanity with Section 8.
    2) Willingness to prioritize the well-being of people in the US (including illegal immigrants) over poor people overseas in their arguments to “care about the poor.” I care at least somewhat about the poor, and my checkbook reflects that, but I am far more concerned about the poor of Africa, India and North Korea than I am about the poor in the United States, especially healthy US citizen poor.

    Yeah, so, you’ve just described me.

    Here’s the thing. The undeserving poor can be transformed into the deserving poor with some love and attention. I see this with the homeless guys who go to my (former) church. Hanging out with Fine Upstanding Christians helps them to some extent; hanging out with me helps even more. One of them has now got a full-time night shift gig working at a bakery. You need a supportive community to be The Deserving Poor. If you are abandoned and bereft, you will be undeserving. Community is everything.

    2) is a false dichotomy. You can care about both. You have four small children who need you. I don’t. I can hang out with the dregs of society and listen to them and help them with their stupid blogs and drive them to their doctor appointments. I can talk about politics and God with them. If I had four small children, I absolutely could not. This is not a criticism of you. I hope you see that. If I had four small children it would take everything I had in me to not simply kill them and myself.

    I really wish everyone would read this book:

    https://smile.amazon.com/Poor-Law-Welfare-State-6th/dp/0684854716/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1470102090&sr=8-1&keywords=from+poor+law+to+welfare+state+edition+6th

    It has meant so much to me over the years. I read a much earlier edition in college. I’ve kept up with it til the author retired in 1989. It is so useful for understanding how the U.S. has dealt with both the deserving and undeserving poor over the centuries.

  99. IME, the biggest factor that influences whether one’s charitable impulses are directed locally or globally is involvement with religion. There seem to be far more faith-based than secular opportunities to build huts in Haiti or water systems in Africa or orphanages in India.

  100. If you are a Christian, isn’t everyone “undeserving”? How does it go again – “Blessed are the deserving poor…” I don’t get it.

  101. We are all sinners, but that doesn’t keep us from serving on juries. Part of God’s wisdom is the balance between justice and mercy. The rest of us just aspire to that level of wisdom and recognize that we will err in one direction or the other.

  102. My acquaintance who built a water system in Africa took a month off work for the construction but spent months before and after supporting the design and final work. His colleagues (not all religious) supported his time off and I think some of them contributed financially. I agree with Kate that many people liberals support these types of projects.

    I was thinking about liberal vs. conservative and view by social class (Hillbilly Elegy) while reading a local newspaper article on someone at our church who rents rooms to recovering addicts/homeless people and the complications associated with that. (It is currently legal and there is some discussion that it should not be.)

    The head of an affordable housing organization explained that there is insufficient government funding to provide affordable housing to all the people on the Section 8 wait list. (Insert conservative comment here about extensive local greenspace zoning)

    The neighbors are justifiably complaining that sometimes residents litter, urinate in public, swear, yell and engage in other inappropriate activities.

    The working class neighbor-after-my-own-heart commented that when you rent to a bunch of drunks, someone is going to fall of the wagon once in a while and he didn’t see a better alternative to the current situation.

    I have never been able to summarize my objections to liberal policies better than Margaret Thatcher did. “Eventually you run out of other people’s money.”

  103. You need a supportive community to be The Deserving Poor. If you are abandoned and bereft, you will be undeserving. Community is everything.

    This is the most important thing, IMO.

  104. Maybe because I am a (mostly) liberal or maybe because I am an undeserving UMC person, but I have never really understood the difference between the deserving and undeserving poor, particularly as handled by social welfare programs and charities. It seems like such an easy concept until you start putting it in practice.

  105. Your comments make me wonder to what extent the benefits of the “sweat equity” requirement with Habitat for Humanity occur by being part of the community of people working on your house. I had mostly thought of the requirement as a sorting mechanism to allocate a limited good, but maybe the community aspect is more important than the sorting mechanism aspect.

    My volunteer uncle has owned several rent houses and worked as a telephone line installer so he’s more handygod than handyman.

  106. Maybe it’s a problem of terminology. Instead of “deserving” or “undeserving,” how about drawing a distinction between people you can help with charitable efforts, and people who use charitable support to continue in self- and other-destructive behavior. Sometimes, as you point out, the distinction is not obvious, but often it is.

  107. I think that is where the conservatives and liberals might disagree. I am not sure that it is usually obvious. And I am ok wasting some money if we help a few that are improperly categorized as not being worthy. Plus adding kids to the mix really complicates things. And I think there is just a practical issue of what you do with those who are undeserving.

  108. “And I am ok wasting some money if we help a few that are improperly categorized as not being worthy”

    This is what liberals always fall back on. They say “I’m OK wasting money even if it helps a few who don’t deserve it.”

    That’s a strawman argument. The question is not whether it’s acceptable to help a few who are undeserving, but whether it’s actually doing more harm than good by perpetuating the dependency and encouraging the self-destructive behavior.

    Yes, it’s difficult to determine the line, and the distinction is often blurred and imperfect. But you have to be intellectually honest about the terms and the tradeoffs.

  109. Instead of wasting brain cycles, time, and money trying to categorize people as deserving or undeserving (which is really messy because most people don’t fit neatly into either category), instead put the effort into interventions that could move the “undeserving” towards “deserving”. I know that is difficult, but so is trying to sort and categorize

  110. In reality, I never think about how to categorize the poor into “deserving” or “undeserving” but rather how to allocate limited goods optimally, in particular housing, which is most obviously limited. Economists tell us there are 4 ways to allocate limited goods. 1) Money (I include work on your Habitat for Humanity house here) 2) Lottery (many cities have lotteries for affordable housing units 3) Queuing (many cities have wait lists for affordable housing; NYC has complex rules for living in fixed price rentals, I’ve read) 4) Fiat (communist party members got priority to obtain the available goods and housing, as an example)

    I think conservatives are more willing to use money/effort to allocate limited goods and liberals are more willing to use lottery and queuing.

  111. Y’all are talking about much more interesting things now, but I’m still going to interrupt with this sign of how ridiculous this election has gotten. http://www.rawstory.com/2015/07/florida-republican-donald-trump-is-a-democratic-plot-to-make-gop-look-stupid/

    WCE, have you worked with Habitat for Humanity? The one time I did, the sweat equity was described as you do here–the community coming together to provide for eachother. When I later heard it described as forcing unpaid labor and such a drag to have to put in the hours, I was sad because the diluted idea seemed so cheapened comparatively.

    Rocky, I didn’t realize anyone still used those terms unironically and without reference to the speaker.

  112. Trump plans massive tax cuts and massive spending plans. His tax cuts are going to be REALLY BIG, and he proposes to spend twice as much as Hillary on infrastructure

    “Asked how he would pay for that, he proposed a fund that everyday people and investors will pour money into.
    “We’ll get a fund. We’ll make a phenomenal deal with a low interest rate and we’re gonna have to rebuild our infrastructure and we have no choice,” Trump said. “And we will rebuild our infrastructure with that fund and it’ll be a great investment, and it’s gonna put a lot of people to work. And we need jobs because, if you look — you know, the real number’s not 5 percent. It’s probably closer to 20 percent because people have given up looking for jobs. We need jobs.”

    Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/trump-tax-cuts-spending-plan-226568#ixzz4GCYwoPob

  113. If the Republican Party’s goal was to test their base’s multidecade resolve to vote for whoever runs against HRC, they couldn’t have picked a better candidate.

  114. Milo – I don’t think we (the government, charities or the man on the street) are able to sort people in a way that can successfully place those who are hurt v helped by social welfare programs/charitable works/etc. So, I guess I am ok risking that some will be hurt by the help. Maybe they would have been able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. I don’t know. But I don’t think that the person running the food bank or the person working for SNAP can determine that. So, I would rather give everyone some food. It would be great if we were able to sort people like that. But I have never seen it done successfully. People are complicated.

  115. Saac, sure.

    Kate, I think helping people with nearly unlimited goods (food in our society) is a less complex question than helping people with limited goods (housing in a given city).

  116. WCE – agreed. But the complaints I hear from people IRL usually involve the stereotypical welfare queen who is using her EBT card to buy lobsters while talking on a free Obama phone.

  117. This one-page article from 5 years ago has stuck with me over the years. It describes the type of treatment that I think should be more available to the “undeserving” poor, especially those who will never become “deserving”. To me this is an economic and compassionate way to deal with those who are never going to reform. As a Christian, I think we are called to help those who can never repay it back. As much as I want to believe that everyone can reform themselves or want to improve their situation, many are not able to or don’t want to. I believe we are still called to help them. I think we can find ways to provide a base level of care to people like that described in this article that doesn’t cause us to run out of money. I think most of those options are unpalatable to most people because they feel that people should “deserve” or “earn” those benefits. They don’t want to admit that, like in this article, some people will never be cured and that it is cheaper and more humane to provide basic care and shelter than trying to reform them.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/01/magazine/mag-01YouAreHere-t.html?_r=0

  118. WCE, it’s on my FB now, attributed to an obviously brilliant friend in the NW US

    Housing is not scarce. There is empty housing stock that owners would rather keep boarded up than charge low rents, because that’s how subsidies work.

  119. Housing is scarce in places people want to live. Currently, we have “affordable housing” as an official policy goal in places like Westchester and NYC, not just in Detroit and Cleveland. Rents are often related to the cost of maintaining the property, which is affected by the tenants and housing code.

    If we were a different country, we could solve the affordable housing crisis by mandating that people in Westchester vacate their market rate houses and move to market rate housing in Cleveland and Detroit.

  120. Kate – It’s sort of a difficult debate to have focusing on specifics. The people I may see using SNAP or whatever it’s called in Walmart don’t look like they’re trying to game any system. Anecdotally, they’re usually just buying a lot of formula. Besides, food is really cheap, anyway, by historical standards. So is housing and energy, for that matter. So I’m not one to get worked up about welfare queens. And I thought for the most part that Bill Clinton put that issue on the back burner in 1996, to the dismay of many progressives at the time.

    In a way, that debate is 20 years stale. Besides, the Democrats have enlisted too many of the affluent, and the Republicans too many of the downtrodden to fight it on the old terms. That’s probably why social program spending may seem comparatively low to people like Rocky who deal with it more closely, but I could be wrong on that.

  121. Probably WIC, not SNAP is paying for the formulas. I think safety net spending is about 10% of the budget. This doesn’t include things like Medicaid or CHIP or Social Security.

  122. “If we were a different country, we could solve the affordable housing crisis by mandating that people in Westchester vacate their market rate houses and move to market rate housing in Cleveland and Detroit.”

    I think the problem in China is not so much forcing people to move from their homes. It’s more that housing doesn’t keep up with people moving to work in factories. There are, however, entire cities that have been vacant ever since they were built. I’d prefer to live someplace between that and total dependence on the “invisible hand”

  123. If the Republican Party’s goal was to test their base’s multidecade resolve to vote for whoever runs against HRC, they couldn’t have picked a better candidate.

    I’m going with the theory that Trump is running as a favor to HRC.

  124. Food is scarce, housing is scarce. \

    Housing is not scarce. There is empty housing stock that owners would rather keep boarded up than charge low rents, because that’s how subsidies work.

    If the owner could make a profit, taking into consideration the work and expense required to bring the units into compliance given the existing rental market, the empty housing stock would be rented. If, however, there are existing laws and regulations that make it difficult to increase rents or sell the property once a tenant is in place, then the required rental rate might well exceed what tenants are willing to pay, and the place stays empty.

  125. C–did you see my link? There is.a Republican rep in Florida who alleges that Trump’s run is a Dem ploy. Not sure what, if anything, he plans to do about it, but he’s angry.

  126. “If the owner could make a profit”
    There’s the rub! Housing should be decent, safe and clean–and available.

  127. tcmama,
    Thanks for sharing that article.

    “It costs $18,000 a year to house and feed each St. Anthony’s resident, a tab that’s shared by Catholic Charities and the state of Minnesota. Each resident gets $89 a month, much of which is spent on alcohol. Three hot meals are served here each day, cable television is available in every room and there is a computer area where I saw a resident watching a YouTube video of Charlie Sheen. “There are people who say: ‘That’s outrageous. You’re just enabling these guys to sit around and drink all day,’ ” Jim Gillham, St. Anthony’s service coordinator, tells me in his office. “And to that I say: ‘Well, we’re not actually doing that, because we help these guys moderate their drinking. Many drink much less than they did on the streets.’ I also try to help people understand how much taxpayer money is saved by this kind of program.” ”

    It must surely save money, but it also saves lives, or at the very least enables these men to live with more human dignity than if they were living on the street. And, as the article points out near the end, a handful of residents do manage to stop drinking.

  128. Saac,

    Why would the landlord go to the effort, risk, and trouble of owning rental property if they don’t make a profit?

  129. I was at some function this spring with two super delegates. I asked one of them if trump was working for them and he only laughed.

  130. I still don’t understand why, if free college is such an economic nightmare, it didn’t shut down all the private colleges back in the 60s and 70s when public colleges were dirt cheap.

  131. In the 70’s at least, financial aid from the government was far more generous, enabling middle class kids to go to private schools. That is no longer true.

  132. In the 70’s at least, financial aid from the government was far more generous, enabling middle class kids to go to private schools. That is no longer true.

    In the before time, in California, if you were in the top 1/8 of the state’s high school senior, you could attend the University of California for pocket change. I don’t see how restoring that system brings on Armageddon.

  133. In the 70’s at least, financial aid from the government was far more generous, enabling middle class kids to go to private schools. That is no longer true.

    Hey, I was there, and no it wasn’t. I was middle class and the government wasn’t handing me tuition to go to Stanford, because believe me, I would have grabbed it.

    I agree with Cordelia.

  134. The difference now is that middle class kids have to take on debt to go to college. It wasn’t like that in the 70’s because Pell grants were far more generous. I know – I had one as part of my package! Also, the loans in those days had much lower interest rates. So you could put together a financial aid package at a private school for a middle class kid that was competitive with the super low public school prices. I know, because that is how I ended up at a private university. I actually paid less than I would have paid at my home state public

    Now, most middle class kids take on soome level of debt whether they go to a private or a public. So the difference isn’t quite as great. But if publics were suddenly free, but privates continued to be financed via loans – well, I think most middle class kids would go the free route. This will be great for the directional state U’s, but will destroy the very small, tuition dependent privates.

    In any case, it isn’t going anywhere because it depends on the states cooperating

  135. Rocky, I went to a private school on a mix of Pell grant, academic scholarship from the university,and a very small ($1000) NDSL loan with 1% interest. I had summer work study, where I made my book money. Five years later, my younger sib couldn’t get a package like that because the Pell grants had been slashed under Reagan.

  136. I didn’t know anyone who got a Pell grant unless they were seriously lower-income.

  137. I was seriously lower-income (my dad died my junior year), but I never qualified for a Pell grant.

  138. I had Pell grants all 4 years of college, and while we were certainly lower middle class in income, we weren’t “low income”. Perhaps you went to college after the Reagan cuts? Things changed pretty fast.

  139. In 1978 the average Pell grant was $814 dollars. I don’t see that paying the tuition for any of the California private colleges even back in ’78. Undergraduate tuition at Stanford was $5,130 plus $2,169 for room and board.

  140. Back in the day, kids with questionable academic potential were directed to vocational training, and they didn’t even try to attend college. In the 1970’s, only half of the class at my high school in a lower- to middle-class community went on to any kind of college after graduation — now, virtually everyone does. But some HALF of those who being college today don’t actually finish, in six years anyhow. These are the folks with burdensome student loans, not the Totebagger kids who go to even moderately selective schools and graduate in 4 or 5 years with a degree.

  141. “The difference now is that middle class kids have to take on debt to go to college. It wasn’t like that in the 70’s because Pell grants were far more generous.”

    Sure it was. We were totally middle-class and I got ZERO in Pell grants. I took out student loans to pay for the state flagship university, which back then covered most of the expenses. Most of my classmates from straight middle-class families were doing the same thing. Pell grants were for poor kids, most of whom didn’t manage to get into the state flagship university. Private schools were not handing out merit aid like candy back then either, so private colleges were not really an option for most of my high school classmates. IMO, it’s far easier today for a talented but lower-income student to get scholarship assistance at a good school than it was 35 or 40 years ago. There was nothing remotely like College Confidential for sharing information, and colleges had not yet developed the kind of programs for reaching out to URM or first-generation students that exist today. Lots of UMC parents who went to selective schools back in the day bemoan that they would never qualify for admission now, and that their kids will probably be shut out, but they never seem to consider the significant segment of high school seniors back then for whom schools like Columbia or Duke or Williams were not even on the radar screen.

  142. Someplace, I read that the cutoff for a Pell grant in 1978 was a family income of $25,000 which in that era was certainly middle class, albeit lower middle class (we always thought of $30,000 as being “well off middle class”, which my family was not). I can’t find the reference now. I also read that the percentage of Pell grant recipients attending 4 year colleges has gone down since that era, and the percentage atttending community college has gone up.

  143. Going way back to the Wisconsin plan which Scott has dug away at, and frequently threatens to gut entirely, my dad grew up with a single parent who worked a blue collar job, and put himself through college and med school in Wisconsin in the 50s. In college he drove a beer truck, a taxi, rented a bed that he got for half the day, was a lab rat, and was able to pay for three years of college, after which he was admitted to med school. I’m not sure how he paid for med school, but it certainly wasn’t the expense that it would be now for a kid with zero savings or parental contribution.

  144. “I’m not sure how he paid for med school”

    I thought it was the Air Force.

  145. Air Force was after med school, either internship or residency, I always get the order of those mixed up.Six month ER rotation before, 2 year ophthalmology specialization after, then joined private practice. I remember when he passed his boards in Ohio–he must’ve been 35 by then, or just under that age. A lot of training!

  146. Come to think of it, he may’ve been a chem research assistant during med school. Chemistry was his fallback.

  147. “what do you guys think of Trump refusing to endorse Ryan and McCain in their reelection bids? ”

    Not an unreasonable response to the level of support they’ve given Trump.

  148. “In the before time, in California, if you were in the top 1/8 of the state’s high school senior, you could attend the University of California for pocket change. I don’t see how restoring that system brings on Armageddon.”

    My understanding is that the funding of the state university/college/CC system was a major factor in bringing about Prop 13, which some might characterize as an Armageddon of sorts.

  149. My recollection of college in the late 70’s/early 80’s is more like Scarlett’s than Mooshi’s. In college I knew what felt like *a lot* (it was probably 6) kids whose parents mortgaged the house to pay for their private college education. I don’t know a single one of my contemporaries who has taken that approach to funding their kids’ educations, but I know a lot of parents with plenty of assets who are diligently ordering their financial lives to maximize their FAFSA potential. It seems like there is much more of a sense that *someone else* is supposed to pay for college now. I also see this attitude in other areas, like friends whose parents want to make sure Medicaid pays for their nursing home, and their kids can inherit their often substantial assets when they die. There’s much less “this is what I saved this money for so I’ll use it for this” now than in the 70’s, IMHO.

  150. I knew several sets of parents (as well as my own) who said, “You just can’t go there. You have to go someplace cheap.” Seems like that doesn’t get said much anymore either.

  151. Since my parents bought their current house in the early/mid-80s, they refinanced the mortgage quite a few times as interest rates steadily declined. At one point, one of the refinances included at least some cash out to pay for college tuition, which is somewhat equivalent to what HfN described. Nowadays, with interest rates around 3%, I think the parents who previously would have done a cash-out or a new mortgage are the ones today who simply will hold on to their current mortgage for the full term, not paying any extra principal. Also, other people might be more hesitant to tell friends and neighbors that they’re doing a cash-out since the term gained such infamy in 2008.

    My parents definitely did not have the same attitude as Rocky’s, because my Mom’s primary desire was based on name recognition and USNWR rankings. She was probably overcompensating for going to a no-name school herself (and then when I was in high school, she got a master’s from a top-name prestigious school to try to correct that in her mind). On the other hand, the difference between public and private might have been $16k vs $28k, not $25k vs $65k.

  152. My understanding is that the funding of the state university/college/CC system was a major factor in bringing about Prop 13, which some might characterize as an Armageddon of sorts.

    I think it was the skyrocketing tax rates that came about because real estate was appreciating so rapidly, not the university funding that brought about Prop 13.

  153. Can We Finally Stop Doing Things ‘Backwards And In Heels’?

    “The phrase is no doubt sweet and well-intentioned, but there’s something about it that doesn’t sit right with me in 2016. Maybe it feels a little glib and old fashioned to use footwear as a shorthand for contemporary women’s issues.”

  154. If Trump is so incredibly unpopular, why did he win the primary?

    The media was noting that all the major Wisconsin pols, including the governor, and Paul Ryan, and Reince Priebus, and some other guy, all have to wash their hair and won’t be at Trump’s Wisconsin rally today.

    And finally, people need to stop predicting Trump’s demise. It’s a looong time til November.

  155. He won because he scared all the sensible opponents away. He turned the whole thing into a circus. By the time he got to the primary, I don’t think there was any legal way to not give him the nomination.

  156. I guess so, Rhode. I don’t know, I think this whole election cycle has been somewhat mysterious. I don’t mean rigged. I mean puzzling.

  157. I think this cycle finally points out how the “old” way (i.e. the way our founding fathers dreamed up) is not really useful in the 21st century. The rules we have now are easily skirted. And with the modern age, is there any reason for the electoral college? Or even the state delegates?

    I think both Trump and Clinton show us how “easily” it is to skirt the rules and how antiquated they are. I’m not sure things will change because the people who have the power to enact the change will be doing so against their own self interest.

    Kinda like asking Congress/Senate to impose term limits on themselves. Or denying themselves raises.

  158. I think both Trump and Clinton show us how “easily” it is to skirt the rules and how antiquated they are.

    Well, Clinton’s people, if not rigged, tipped the scale in the Democratic party.

    I think Trump reflected the anger of a large number of forgotten people, and there were enough other candidates who shared out the the votes of the other people.

  159. To say that Trump getting votes is puzzling is to believe that people are capable of rational thought and empathy. I just don’t believe that any more because that is the only way to explain away the politicians we elect.

  160. Right, my puzzlement is more about how he could have been popular enough to win the primary BUT NOW his poll numbers are so dismal. I do agree that he appealed to working-class voters (and not just white ones! I’ve met some working-class people of color who like him too). But now suddenly he’s so unpopular…

  161. Oh ok. Got it Rms. I am not sure if he is really unpopular among his voters or its just the media portrayal. Or if his latest statements really did affect his popularity. November is still some ways away though.
    Anyway, at this point I am completely burned out about the election. I will stay away till November.

    Btw, did anyone read about the David Duke interview where he says Of course Trump supporters are his supporters too! – in relation to his senate bid.

  162. Supposedly he raised a ton of small donations in the past month. I find that puzzling. It implies his popularity is soaring among certain groups. His poll numbers may be dismal, but his adherents may be even more dedicated than they were before.

  163. I presume he raised the money leading up to, during, and immediately after his convention. Things were going OK for him then. He had a great convention speech. He could have stayed on that and grown up.

    This past week has been an unprecedented disaster. He’s a fu(king clown.

  164. RMS – Milo has it right… he was polished going into the convention… the debates leading up to the primary were a distant memory in media terms. And his brand of attack is good for the debates and primary. But, after the convention, he let it rip on Gold Star Families, and completely rewrote history re: 9-11, and a few other things.

    He didn’t just have a slip up. He completely fell down the stairs and is now a heap on the bottom.

    His true character showed. And a lot of those working class people are vets, or have family members who are vets.

  165. RMS, the answer to your question is easy: primaries don’t really reflect the general election voters. That is true on both sides. Only the most dedicated voters turn out to vote in primaries, and those often are people who are angry about something. This is especially true in caucus states, where the task of getting your vote counted in the primary can be really arduous.

    I think I read someplace that only 9% of eligible American voters have actually voted FOR Trump in a primary.

  166. I wouldn’t call this election “puzzling”. I think “creepy” is a better term.

  167. I’m depressed about it. I’d vote for just about any nationally prominent Democrat right now (Sanders is not a real Democrat) over Trump, except the snake who is actually the nominee.

    That’s why I read about boats in the evening.

  168. I read somewhere that Trump and Clinton had both attracted the same percentage of primary voters.

  169. No, I just bought a used copy on there from Goodwill. Thanks. That should help keep my mind off of things.

  170. According to this site, Clinton had 55% of the primary vote to Sanders 43%. It looks like they are saying Trump had 40% of the Republican primary vote (it is a bit buried). The article, though, points out that Sanders stayed in the race until the end, whereas Trump’s competitors dropped out much sooner, probably pushing his percentage up a bit.
    This is a good article in general on unpacking these numbers
    http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/was-the-democratic-primary-a-close-call-or-a-landslide/

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