Open thread

by Grace aka costofcollege

What’s on your mind today?  Current events?

Here’s a distraction if you’d like it.

Psychologists Have Invented a Test to Measure Your Secret Need for Drama

Can you predict any totebaggers who might score high on the need for drama?  I think most totebaggers avoid drama.  Do you know any drama queens in real life?  Is it mainly tiresome or fun to be around them?  How did you score?

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167 thoughts on “Open thread

  1. My need is for drama is low; I do, however work with several people who feel the need to come into my office to regale me with all their issues-and times I am not sure if they lack coping skills, are bored, or just seriously like any and all attention. They are also terrible at taking my non-verbal cues that I am not interested and will go on and on until I have to say that I can’t talk because I am in the middle of something. UGH!

  2. I tested “low” for drama as well.

    I’m saddened by the Orlando attack, and also that I feel these things don’t even shake me much anymore. They blend together so much in my mind I can’t even keep many of them straight. Paris, Belgium, the mall in Nairobi, the hotel in Mali (that was a near miss for my cousin and so scared me much more panicking to text and confirm that she was back in the states), etc.

  3. I took it twice and got an Average and then a Low rating. I must have been in a different mood each time I took the test!

    Did anyone read Amy Chua’s latest in the WSJ? Her daughters are staying in the family’s apartment in Manhattan this summer and Amy drew up an obnoxious contract for them to sign. I completely agree with her that the apartment is hers (and her husbands), and that the daughters need to expect the parents to pop in and find a tidy apartment, but her snarkiness really bugs me.

  4. My need for drama is very low, but I didn’t need the survey to tell me that. I generally prefer not to be the center of attention, and growing up with a couple of hams for siblings made that really easy. I find people with a high need for drama to be tiresome, and I prefer to avoid interacting with them. Ain’t nobody got time for that.

    On the other thread, I cannot imagine that it would make any difference at all in the approach to terror attacks whether the president calls it “an act of terror” or “an act of radical Islamist terror”. I do see how focusing on the Islamic part supports the terrorists narrative that the US is at war with Islam, and I think it makes some segment of US citizens feel the same way. That is backed up by the comments section of every article I read this weekend. I don’t really care one way or the other how it is referenced, and was surprised that the discussion on what various people call it got so much airtime.

  5. I am sticking to my policy of not discussing terrorism since I believe that kind of attention is sought by the perpetrators.

  6. Ssk – I did like her clause that the parents had to be greeted with enthusiasm and gratitude every time. That made me laugh.

  7. I thought the Amy Chua piece was hysterical. Perfect for so many reasons if it was meant to be funny. The problem with Chua is that it’s probably a real contract because she’s so annoying.

    A mom was grilling me about honors math in the middle school. A friend overheard the whole thing and said, “just ignore Amy Chua”. She’s definitely become the substitute term around here for tiger mom.

  8. My need for drama is high. No surprises there! I think I could be termed as a very passionate person.

    However, I am very laid back in day to day life and in my interactions with people. It’s the social issues that get me going and things that I perceive as unfair or wrong. That is the reason I am not in litigation. I won’t be able to keep and even keel and remain unattached. That is also why my pro bono work involving family law etc emotionally exhausts me.

    Few people in my life – a friend and some relatives are high needs – as in need all the attention all the time, are drama queens and King. They are way too exhausting and draining.

  9. I got very low on the drama bit. There has always been more than enough drama around me, makes up for my lack of it. Worse, some of it seems to follow up and I wonder how I got stuck with the drama queens.

  10. Did anyone read Amy Chua’s latest in the WSJ?

    Reading between the lines I get the impression that Amy will be one of those parents who uses their money to control their children. She’ll happily help out with a down payment – if she gets her own key. She’ll happily pay for private school, vacations, etc. provided she runs the show.

  11. Hmm, not sure I agree with the way these guys tested “drama.” I tested “very low,” presumably because most of the questions involved things like whether you intentionally manipulate people to get your way, which I wouldn’t have a clue how to do even if I wanted to. I do feel like I tend toward higher drama than the quiz suggested — not by way of throwing firebombs into conversation and such, but more that I get distracted/preoccupied with whatever triviality is going on in my life at the moment (good or bad)and spend more time/energy on that than it’s worth.

    The Amy Chua thing I can’t settle in on at all. My immediate reaction is, damn, if you’re such the awesomest parent ever, why do you still need to put the dots so close together for your GROWN kids to understand the basic rules of civility? I can totally see a contract (see, I’d call it a “lease,” not a behavior contract, because I’d be outlining the terms by which my kid could stay in my property). And I can understand that some of those terms should relate to expectations for maintaining the property. But dress nicely and sit politely with company for 15 minutes? Could you be more dismissive and belittling to a grown-ass woman? That’s the kind of thing you tell your 12-year-old; if you’re still needing to tell her that at 23, you’ve done something wrong. (Like, maybe, micromanaged everything she’s done for the past 23 years so that she has no independent judgment or sense of how to behave if someone’s not giving that level of instruction?)

    But then I am also probably just overreacting based on who it is. I know a number of other parents of early-adult kids, and those kids have a variety of grown-up-edness, and many different arrangements with their parents. So it’s clearly not the *fact* of living in the parents’ condo, or having a contract (lease)/agreement to cover those basic terms — those all seem to be perfectly normal and common things for many people, and probably will be for me, too, in another few years.

    I think it’s combination of tone and subject matter. On the one hand, she is practically throwing out her shoulder patting herself on the back for being such an awesome mother — heck, she’s made a whole second career out of showing the world that her way is the best way to raise kids. And yet she seems oblivious to what her writing suggests about the success of her parenting methods (i.e., that like everyone else, she has a 23-year-old who is not yet self-supporting and thus needs to live in mom’s place; that said kids are so incapable of understanding the basics of how not to be a doink that she has to spell it out for them in a formal contract, etc.). Not to mention how these kinds of articles must make her kids feel — if my mom wrote an article like this about me, we would have a very, very serious issue, of the “have a nice life” variety.

    That’s what it is — that’s what’s galls me: she is building herself up in the national eye at the expense of her kids; the success of her brand depends entirely on portraying her own kids as fundamentally helpless and incompetent if she’s not there to guide them. Which IMO is exactly the WRONG way to parent.

  12. she has a 23-year-old who is not yet self-supporting

    In her defense she is at Yale Law and a Second Lt. in the Army.

  13. I read Chua’s articles and think, “Sons, this is what you don’t want in a MIL.”

  14. LfB – totally!!!! I see this with my clients too – especially with this one particular couple whose son had a kid out of wedlock. ALL of their documents (and there are a lot of them!) exclude ‘illegitimate’ descendants and require the son to sign a paternity acknowledgment for every single document, in order to receive any benefits under the document. How much are they going to rub his face in it? AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE.

    I scored very low for drama. I think the most dramatic thing that I do is complain about other people, mostly the ones I perceive as being high drama. ;)

  15. It is not possible to defeat a threat unless you can identify it. The suggestion that the Orlando murderer was a disturbed person who looked around for a vehicle for his rage, randomly chose Islamic jihad, and then picked up a gun and started shooting *might make sense” if this were an isolated event. But it happens *every day* somewhere in the world, and when the perpetrators of these atrocities consistently cite Islamic jihad, then it’s beyond insane to keep ignoring the truth.

  16. Scarlett,

    What is you preferred policy response, assuming we acknowledge what you perceive to be the truth?

  17. Sadly I agree with Scarlett on this one. Whatever the mental instability, the virulent islamic fervor always seems to add conviction, legitimacy and validity to such acts.

  18. Saving/money management question:
    We currently have 100k in a money market account of which probably 50k is legitimately an emergency fund. We have vague ideas to use the rest for kitchen extension, roof replacement a few years down the road.
    What have you done as an alternative to money market account for liquidity and safety of the money?
    We do not have brokerage accounts other than retirement savings as we both feel uncomfortable with them.

  19. Radical Islamist or radical homophobe? I think both, personally. And I think if Trump wants Obama to resign for not saying “radical Islamist”, as news reports have indicated, then Trump should get out of the race if he can’t say “radical homophobe”

  20. @ Anon, I wouldn’t put anything in stocks that you need in a time frame of less than 3-5 years. For that kind of $$, and planning an upcoming renovation, I would leave it where it is in the MMA.

    I have a low need for drama and a low tolerance for other people’s drama. I find drama stressful, not exciting, interesting, or adrenaline boosting.

  21. I hate drama. I have a sib who creates drama whenver possible, and looks for it everywhere. Makes me crazy

  22. Ugh. Just saw a FB comment that Orlando was an “inside job” in order to confiscate guns from American citizens.

    It’s always a bit hard for me to resist arguing with strangers on the Internet. I don’t think I’m high drama, just always right. Probably, best answer is to turn off FB.

  23. I’m low drama, as you’ll all be shocked to hear.

    Amy Chua is talking about her kids again? Those poor girls. I’m sure they’re thrilled that potential employers who google them will find out that their mother doesn’t trust them to pick up after themselves or exhibit basic social skills without instruction.

  24. What have you done as an alternative to money market account for liquidity and safety of the money?

    What rate are you currently getting on your money? If you’re with a regular bank the rates might be 0.4 to 0.6% so it might make sense to move to a Capital One (or similar) account which pays 1%. But, other than that, I can’t think of anything.

  25. “Radical Islamist or radical homophobe? I think both, personally. And I think if Trump wants Obama to resign for not saying “radical Islamist”, as news reports have indicated, then Trump should get out of the race if he can’t say “radical homophobe””

    It kind of goes hand-in-hand, to the point of redundancy. ISIS throws homosexuals off the tops of buildings, and the death sentence is not limited to ISIS.

    Islamic law, after all, is crystal clear on homosexuality, though the various schools of sharia prescribe a range of penalties: one calls for death by stoning; another demands that the transgressor be thrown from a high place; a third says to drop a building on him. In Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Sudan, Yemen, Mauritania, Pakistan, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, as well as in parts of Nigeria, Somalia, Syria and Iraq, homosexuality is indeed punishable by death.

  26. There’s good stuff in that article:

    Nor do Muslims magically change their views on the subject when they move to the West. As long ago as 2005, the head of the Netherlands’ leading gay rights group said that, owing to the growth of Islam in Amsterdam, tolerance of gay people was “slipping away like sand through the fingers”; over the last 10 or 15 years, Dutch gays have fled the cities in droves to escape Muslim gay-bashing. In Norway, several high-profile Muslims have refused publicly to oppose executing gays, and when challenged on their views have gone on the offensive, demanding respect for orthodox Muslim beliefs. This past April, a poll established that 52 percent of British Muslims want homosexuality banned.

    Many on the left (and some on the right, too) refuse to face these facts. In 2004, when gay activist Peter Tatchell urged London’s then-mayor Ken Livingstone to rescind an invitation to Koranic scholar Yusuf al-Qaradawi—who supports the death penalty for gays—Livingstone issued a report calling Qaradawi a liberal and Tatchell a racist.

    http://www.city-journal.org/html/brutal-realities-14573.html

  27. Some argue that pulling out all stops in an effort to destroy ISIS overseas would help.

    Isn’t ISIS the result of our incessant meddling? You have to give Saddam credit, he knew how to deal with them.

  28. “You just can’t imagine this would happen to our community, our state, or anywhere in our country,” — FL Gov. Rick Scott

    “Today we are dealing with something that we never imagined and is unimaginable,” — Orlando Mayor Dyer

    Really, guys? You couldn’t have imagined this?

  29. and of course the Westboro Baptist Church is celebrating Orlando, says God sent the shooter,

    um, “thou shall not kill” ?

  30. well, I’d say you always imagine ‘this” happening else where, not your town

  31. This past April, a poll established that 52 percent of British Muslims want homosexuality banned.

    What’s the number for American evangelicals?

  32. “What’s the number for American evangelicals?”

    The number who believe it should be *banned*? That’s not even a question. Nor are evangelicals representative of Christians at large.

  33. “What have you done as an alternative to money market account for liquidity and safety of the money?”

    Absolutely nothing. That’s exactly where we keep our emergency funds and big-expenses-in-next-five-years cash. If your goal is liquidity and safety, it belongs in a money market or a bank.

    The only other thing I might also consider would be laddered CDs (e.g., a series of CDs that come to maturity every 3-6 mos.), if you think you’ll have sufficient advance notice of your need for the cash so you won’t have to cancel a CD early (or if the interest rates are sufficiently higher to offset that risk). Personally, I don’t want to deal with it, and the interest rates haven’t made it worth my time.

  34. I have a low tolerance for unnecessary drama. I took a management class a few years ago where we did a whole battery of tests. In the “Big 5” personality analysis, I scored extremely low on the Neuroticism scale – lowest in the class of 30 or so, and it wasn’t even close. I think that is similar. In contrast, the instructor said that our company & industry is very high on the Neuroticism scale, which makes sense in a way. Since I started working here, I’ve gotten more comments than ever in my life about being “calm” and “laid back” and a “calming influence”.

    “Whatever the mental instability, the virulent islamic fervor always seems to add conviction, legitimacy and validity to such acts.”

    I agree.

  35. As for $, I’m not sure what the anon is looking for. If you don’t want a non-retirement stock brokerage account, then nothing I say will matter, anyway. But my perspective is that the emergency fund is one thing, and you pay a high price these days for the guarantee that it won’t lose value.

    I would not be willing to pay that same price for money I’ve earmarked for a kitchen renovation. I’d keep it (I do keep it) in a tax-managed stock index fund, and if the worst that happens is that it really drops for a few years, then postpone the renovation. Or even go ahead with the renovation and just borrow for it since 1) interest rates will be low as the Fed tries to recover from the massive crash; 2) you’ll score a better deal from the contractor; 3) you can pay back the loan with your dividends.

  36. “What’s the number for American evangelicals?”

    Red herring. Christian evangelicals, American or otherwise, don’t stone, behead, burn alive, or shoot homosexuals. Honestly, can you REALLY not see the difference between what appears in the Quran and what appears in the New Testament?

    “Isn’t ISIS the result of our incessant meddling?”

    ISIS is just one variation on the common theme of Islamic jihad. As Milo noted, ISIS didn’t pull its animus against homosexuals and the rest of us infidels out of thin air. It’s embedded in the history and texts of Islam.

    This site is an excellent place to start understanding the nature of Islamic jihad. Starting with the daily body count, which is staggering. https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

  37. Milo, that is why I said both. But treating this as an attack similar to say the attacks in Paris, or even San Bernandino, misses an important factor. We all know that violent homophobia crosses many religious lines. This guy was clearly a crazy. If he had been an extremist Christian would have done the same? Who knows? In any case, if Trump cares so much about labeliing, then he should acknowledge the homophobia part of it.

    More and more, I see a pattern developing in this country, which while not unique to the U.S, seems to be more common here. That pattern is the armed crazy, acting alone or with one or two others, who uses political or religious ideology, or perhaps no ideology at all, as an excuse to simply kill lots of people. Charles Whitman, Timothy McVeigh, Nidal Hasan, Tamerlan Tsarnaev, Eric Harris, Syed Farook, Dylann Roof, Robert Lewis Dear, Wade Michael Page, Adam Lanza…. Most used guns but not all. None of these people had a network of conspirators, which makes their acts very different from what we are seeing in Europe. The recent attacks in Europe have all been highly planned, almost semi-military attacks involving a lot of people who helped out. I think it is important for political figures and law enforcement in this country to understand that.

  38. Honestly, can you REALLY not see the difference between what appears in the Quran and what appears in the New Testament?

    Well, they don’t usually quote from the New Testament do they?

  39. “None of these people had a network of conspirators, which makes their acts very different from what we are seeing in Europe.”

    You forget 9/11.

    But to your original point, I don’t think Trump would deny the homophobic part of it. The shooter’s own father talked about how he had been disgusted and enraged at the sight of two guys kissing. I just don’t see how it matters.

  40. Thanks everyone for the comments.
    Milo, this was mainly to figure out if we are being way too conservative by keeping the MMA vs doing something (such as ETFs, etc) with it.
    Obviously we are very risk adverse and we do not have another cushion (other than equity and retirement) to fall back on so we are very careful.

  41. “We all know that violent homophobia crosses many religious lines.”

    Lots of people don’t like homosexuals. What other major religious groups consistently, through time and space, command that homosexuals be murdered, in the name of their God?

  42. Scarlett, for a long time, in many Christian countries, homosexuality was punishable by death. The last execution for sodomy in England was in 1835, and the law was not changed until 1861 (when they moved to the supposedly more humane laws that put Oscar WIlde into prison at hard labor and drove Turing to suicide). It is certainly a good thing that we are now much more accepting of homosexuality, but even fairly recently, it has been dangerous to be openly gay in this country, and attitudes from the evangelical Christian church certainly drove some of that. Remember the Matthew Shepard case, where the gay kid was tortured to death? And do you remember that Westboro Baptist Church picketed his funeral?

    This is certainly not to excuse the anti-gay attitudes of conservative Muslims. Hopefully they will evolve just as Christians did over time.

  43. “Obviously we are very risk adverse and we do not have another cushion (other than equity and retirement) to fall back on so we are very careful.”

    I understand, and did not mean to criticize. Just trying to give some alternative thoughts. The only thing I would add is that inflation is a risk, too.

  44. Scarlett, the Old Testament is pretty explicit
    “If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.”
    Leviticus 20:13

  45. Mooshi – If you have to go back almost 200 years to draw a comparison, why bother?

    And if the best analogy in modern times is Matthew Shephard, whose killers do not appear to have been motivated by any ideology or bigotry, let alone sanctioned by a religion, you end up showing it as the exception to the rule. The Shephard case as an ideologically motivated hate crime is pretty weak, anyway:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/26/the-truth-behind-americas-most-famous-gay-hate-murder-matthew-shepard

  46. Anon – pay down your mortgage by 50k and open a home equity line of credit. You’ll earn 4% by no longer paying interest, you’ll have good access to the money through the Heloc. I suspect most people who have 100k liquid don’t often need emergency cash. Also, if you don’t have a mortgage (because you own the house outright) I would argue you don’t need the emergency fund. Put it in a brokerage account.

  47. Milo, the assertion was made that killing gays is not part of Christianity, and I responded by showing that historically, it clearly was. Both religions based their views on the Old Testament. Christianity thankfully became more humane over time, though in the course of history, the time of Oscar Wilde and Alan Turing were not all that long ago. And even in our modern times, Christians in Africa have pushed for laws specifying the death penalty for gay people.

  48. ““If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.”
    Leviticus 20:13”

    And yet we’re not the ones stoning adulterers and homosexuals.

    I can’t understand why so many people have this desperate need for relativism after terrorist attacks.

  49. MM,

    Westboro’s tactics are condemned by nearly every other Christian church in the world, because they are VIOLATING the teachings of Jesus. When ISIS and its fellow jihadists murder homosexuals, mainstream Islam is silent.

    That is the difference.

  50. “though in the course of history, the time of Oscar Wilde and Alan Turing were not all that long ago”

    Well, about 70 years ago, so it’s all relative. Nor were they executed.

  51. Hold onto your hats — I’m about to criticize Hillary! Sorry, Hillary, but just because the FBI has questioned you and is watching you doesn’t mean you get your civil rights abridged.

  52. Also, if you don’t have a mortgage (because you own the house outright) I would argue you don’t need the emergency fund.

    Then how would you meet your living expenses?

  53. Did you see Trump’s interview on the attack, implying that Obama is possibly complicit?

    “We’re led by a man that either is not tough, not smart, or he’s got something else in mind,”

    I did see several renunciations of the attack from Islamic leaders – the leader of Afghanistan and several imams. There are certainly plenty of Muslims who are appalled by these killings as well. I do acknowledge your points re:the widespread use of execution as a means to keep many segments of society down. Maybe I just want to believe that they are a violent fringe who gained power through terror, and not representative of the people.

  54. Rocky – lol. You would think that she, of all people, would be more sensitive to the issue of being under FBI investigations.

    I’m just waiting for Trump’s big, secret plan on how he’s going to crush ISIS. I wonder when he’ll tell us.

  55. I feel now Amy Chua has a reality show like exhbitionist feel but it is in print instead of on TV. Good that this worked for her, but I know of cases where such strict rules led to negative rebellion and suicides in the home country are tied to academic pressure.

  56. “Then how would you meet your living expenses?”

    Keep the $50k (but no more) in the FDIC accounts. But then there’s unemployment insurance, maybe spouse’s income or a second job, belt tightening, dividends.

  57. It isn’t relativism to state that historically, various institutional Christian churches advocated executing gays, and in eras when Christianity and the state were very intertwined, it was usually the law. Like it or not, Islam and Christianity share many roots. Both are heavily based on the Old Testament, as is Judaism of course. Jews didn’t have access to state power, but both Christians and Muslims developed theocracies and put these practices into place. One of the things that has made modern Christianity different is that Christian theocracies have mainly disappeared, which probably has led to more tolerance.

    I have worked with many Muslims, and a lot of my students are observant Muslims, so I may have a different feeling towards them than you do. Most of my observant students are not much diffferent in attitudes than the evangelical Christian kids I grew up with – conservative, rather uncomfortable with the ideas of gay rights, as well as sex outside of marriage and abortion. But maybe because they are mostly New Yorkers, they also are pretty tolerant.

  58. @Rhett – take it out of the Heloc. While it’s irresponsible to use your house as a piggy bank when you have no equity (or negative equity), taking 50k out on a 300k fully paid off house to tide you through a true emergency is unlikely to send you down some financial spiral.

  59. Well, I agree with Hillary on this one. If Google can keep track of the sweaters I examine on LLBean’s website, then clearly our national security agencies have the technology to send a ping to the FBI when someone tries to buy a gun who has been interviewed by the FBI — not once, not twice, but at least THREE times — for suspected jihadist leanings. If we aren’t willing to go this far, then we aren’t serious about stopping the next Orlando massacre.

  60. Milo – if we were told any secret plans the enemy would know, so they must remain a secret ;-). Only successful results will be discussed ;-).

  61. Tankless hot water heater: yea or nay? Our current hot water heater gave up the ghost yesterday. (Although it is so hot here now that a cool shower is delightful.)

  62. “I have worked with many Muslims, and a lot of my students are observant Muslims, so I may have a different feeling towards them than you do.”

    The peaceful majority is irrelevant. Really. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnOF7y-KuHE

    The difficulty for secular people is that they tend to lump all observant religious people into one group, and assume that they all approach their faith in basically the same way, with some cultural twists. Again, there is nothing in the teachings of Christianity that supports, much less commands, the murder of homosexuals. Or anyone else, for that matter. Islam is fundamentally different on that point, which a comparison of the relevant texts makes quite clear. It is not really a question of “tolerance,” a concept which is utterly foreign to Islam. In fact, Christianity and Islam share very few beliefs in common. They cannot even agree on the nature of the God they worship.

  63. Mooshi – I understand. Still, that’s not the threat we’re facing, and that Western Europe is facing. Why is it that when an ISIS adherent murders 49 Americans in Florida, we have to talk about Alan Turing? When ISIS burns alive a Jordanian pilot in a cage, Obama admonishes us to remember the Crusades. For what purpose? Is the idea to just give them another few hundred years and hope they come around?

  64. Again, there is nothing in the teachings of Christianity that supports, much less commands, the murder of homosexuals.

    Explain, as it sure seems like the Bible mandates death for homosexuals.

  65. “Tankless hot water heater: yea or nay?”

    Nay. they don’t save that much, they’re more expensive, and generally less reliable overall. They only save that heat which is lost to ambient while sitting in the tank, and that’s not very much. Modern water heaters are excellent Thermoses.

  66. For what purpose?

    To prevent the anti-Muslim pogroms obviously. We’re only one dirty bomb away from them being rounded up and sent to the Utah desert as it is.

  67. Lark, our California house has a tankless water heater and it seems to work just fine.

  68. “What about the unlimited supply of hot water?”

    Pfft. I’ve never had a problem, even with multiple people showering and the dishwasher running.

  69. “Again, there is nothing in the teachings of Christianity that supports, much less commands, the murder of homosexuals.

    Explain, as it sure seems like the Bible mandates death for homosexuals.”

    only Old Testament – nothing in the New Testament addresses the issue that I’m aware of

  70. Milo, so then we should focus on the specific threat which is ISIS (and perhaps the Taliban), which are extremely radical religious/political movements. Although honestly, I even think that focus is a mistake when it comes to a lot of these attacks in the US (except for 9/11, which was quite different in that it was organized from overseas). I still think a lot of this has to do with crazed, disaffected men who have easy access to guns or explosives. They blame their killings on Islam, or hating women, or hating the government, or hating the world at large, but I think they have a lot more in common with each other than with the radical cells in Europe. We can’t catch and prevent these attacks in the same way that you might in Europe, because you can’t do that kind of counterterrorism that focuses on militant cells, communications, and movements of arms. To prevent these attacks, law enforcement has to get into the mental state of these individual, and that appears to be really hard even when they do come to the notice of the FBI.

  71. Rhett, well with the Christian tradition, a lot of the Old Testament teachings and traditions were replaced. ex: Christians can eat pork

  72. and I don’t think you see Jewish people in today’s world taking that passage literally

  73. I’m not sure that I am in the right place. An office mate told me to get some feedback from people on this site about whether scanners help eliminate piles of paper. I have 100’s of scraps of paper with names and numbers scribbled – new cleaners, brother-in-law who paints houses on the side, nanny with sister looking for work, ETC. She said that people here address these kinds of things? (I apologize if I am in the wrong place).
    How do you all manage these kinds of things? Do you use OneNote or EverNote and enter this stuff? Some is on my phone, but some is not.
    Anyone?

  74. I did see the irony in Clinton’s tweet starting with” If the FBI is watching you”

  75. I’ve had the pleasure to have probably several dozen Muslim friends over the year. Truly wonderful people for the most part. It’s obvious there are many peaceful Muslims in the world. But Islam really does seem to have a serious problem with terrorism. Yes, we can all think of attacks committed by whites, Christians, atheists, etc. but when you consider that Muslims are only 1% of the US population it’s clear that the ratio is extremely disproportionate.

    I don’t know what the answers are. I’m very much opposed to getting ourselves involved in a bunch of military drama overseas- and suspect that this might ultimately make the terrorism worse for us. I wish that the moderate Muslims would do a better job of rooting out violent attitudes amongst themselves. If you look at the many polls done by groups like Pew Research, you’ll find that a very significant (often close to half, depending on the country and question) of Muslims think that terror targeting civilians is at least sometimes justified. That is a completely different situation than groups like Westboro Baptist Church, which consists of less than 50 people, and is sharply condemned by even very conservative Evangelicalgroups like Southern Baptists.

  76. I need a quick vent….I just got back from seeing the attorney about my mom’s estate. This firm did their living trust and the set up for it to flow into a heritage trust, which I am not fully convinced was all needed, but that was their estate planning choice not mine.

    OK, so now they owe me two documents and I have a to do list as long as my arm. I was a bit frustrated when I asked (OK, yes a bajillion times) who does this and the answer kept being “our clients do.” Yes, I realize that they would charge me a ton an hour to do some of this, but their doing it for a fee wasn’t even an option.

    Back to work for me…and my DD#2 started getting things appraised and posting sales online today. Yippee!

  77. “At least some Orthodox Jews feel that gays should be killed”

    Of course they do. And *some* gays no doubt feel that Orthodox Jews should be killed, along with conservative Catholics and observant Muslims. The point, which gets lost in debates about gun control and homophobia, is that the fundamental texts of Islam COMMAND that gays be killed, and enough Muslims evidently believe what they are reading to inspire them to obey. Those are incontrovertible facts. Lumping in the Orlando massacre with random senseless shootings by disturbed white guys just obscures those facts, and makes it more difficult to focus our efforts on defeating the terrorists. Take away their guns, and they’ll use boxcutters, airplanes, knives, bombs, cars, stones, fire, and gravity. They will kill office workers, commuters, bar patrons, school children, babies, old people, unarmed soldiers, women, dissident Muslims — we are all infidels in their eyes. They will kill in groups, with their wives, and as lone wolves. It’s not going to stop because we pass strict gun control laws and embrace gay rights.

  78. @Rhett – take it out of the Heloc.

    My understanding is that your ability to access your HELOC is entirely at the bank’s discretion.

    The latest example of this is in the mass freezing of home equity lines of credit going on across the country. Reeling from losses on their wretched loan decisions of recent years, lenders are preventing borrowers with pristine credit and significant equity in their homes from tapping into credit lines that they paid dearly to secure.

    In the last 30 days, lenders have sent several hundred thousand letters advising borrowers that their home equity lines of credit are frozen, estimated Michael Kratzer, president of FeeDisclosure.com, a Web site intended to help consumers reduce fees on home loans.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/13/business/worldbusiness/13iht-13morg.11930282.html?_r=0

  79. Do NOT rely on a HELOC. We had two credit scores over 800 and no hint of financial problems, but when the bank ran into hard times, it froze our HELOC immediately — very much the “shoot first, ask questions later” approach. And banks tend to run into problems during the same kinds of macroeconomic events that cause people to lose jobs and not be able to replace them quickly. The amount of interest you could earn on $50K over the years that you need that account is not going to provide a meaningful difference in your quality of life at 65. Whereas having no job and bills to pay and no access to ready cash can make an already-tough situation spiral into something horrible very quickly.

    I am struggling with this substantive discussion today. I am finding it hard to hear “why is it that when an ISIS adherent murders 49 Americans in Florida, we have to talk about Alan Turing?” — umm, because he chose to target 49 gay Americans because he hated gays? What little we know to date says this guy was an all-around asshole with massive anger management issues who absolutely hated gays (and wasn’t so hot with women, either). ISIS provides a nice narrative for dickweeds like him — yes, you are not an insignificant little turnip, you are the BOSS of all of these inferior creatures, and Allah will reward you for putting them in their place, preferably with heavy artillery. Which is why the conversation appropriately focuses on both ISIS and how gays are treated here and abroad — even if you manage to solve one of the problems, the other is still left to flourish and breed and spread misery.

  80. I take pictures of documents and save them in Evernote. On my IPhone, the OS gave me a little evernote icon to clic on after I hit the icon with the arrow pointing up. As evernote searches all text, there is no real need to put things in folders. I could also do this on Google Drive or Drop box.

  81. I think the NRA may find that they have a big problem with the LGBT community. They are educated, they are well off and they are tenacious. They are the honey badgers of advocacy groups.

    I am also starting to think that organized religion is a zero sum game. There is an equal amount of bad and good done in the name of religion. (no I don’t have any data – just feels that way)

  82. “Which is why the conversation appropriately focuses on both ISIS and how gays are treated here and abroad — even if you manage to solve one of the problems, the other is still left to flourish and breed and spread misery.”

    OK, so on one hand we have radical Islam that wants to throw all the homosexuals off the roofs of tall buildings. I’m not sure that really compares to a minority of evangelical Christians who would refuse to bake their wedding cakes.

  83. “I think the NRA may find that they have a big problem with the LGBT community.”

    Or else what, the LGBT community will withhold their usual NRA donations?

    And neither Obama nor Clinton seems to have any intention of introducing or proposing any gun control legislation. Not in an election year, I guess.

  84. Or else what, the LGBT community will withhold their usual NRA donations?

    Shift the balance of power. The NRA fought tooth and nail so that people in the no fly list could still buys gun and explosives. I don’t know how long that position will remain politically viable.

  85. Paper scraps, a scanner will help you get all that crap off your desk, but you have to take the time to tag each item so that you can find it again. It’s not impossible but it’s a little tedious.

  86. Lark – we got a tankless water heater in 2008 when we remodeled our basement. We really like it, but our prior water heater was old and not efficient. We chose tankless for the space savings and not for cost savings. We have a small house, and the tankless water heater freed up a lot of floor space and allowed us to expand our living space.

    We did have to upgrade to a bigger gas line. Also, we had put a low-flow shower head on our shower, which caused the water to not heat up. Once we switched back to a regular showerhead, the water heated up fine. We frequently will run the dishwasher, washing machine, and shower at the same time without any problems.

  87. Milo the LGBT community has the ability to harness a great deal of economic and social pressure when they choose.

  88. Since it is open thread day, my washing machine is in process of dying and the warranty company has offered a buyout. Good since I don’t want another Electrolux, which lasted less than three years.

    Any suggestions for a top loading washing machine that will last five years or so?

  89. I think we’ll keep the cash the way it is for now.
    We unfortunately do not have a paid off house so we still need the emergency fund:)

  90. Anon, I second LfB on laddered CDs, if they provide a better return than your MM fund. They are easy to set up, and once you set them up, you can let them automatically renew as long as you don’t need to pull out any money.

    For the funds that aren’t your rainy day fund, you might consider short to intermediate term bonds.

  91. I have a Samsung top loader that I’m very happy with – though I’ve only had it 1.5 years. I did have a minor problem with the shocks (I think? do they have shocks?) but Lowe’s sent someone out and it was pretty painless to deal with (and didn’t cost anything).

  92. “The NRA fought tooth and nail so that people in the no fly list could still buys gun and explosives. I don’t know how long that position will remain politically viable.”

    If the country lacked the will to seriously restrict weapons access after a disturbed young man massacred 20 first-graders, the Orlando shooting isn’t going to move the needle.

  93. Cordelia, why a top loader?

    Our front loading Kenmore, made by Whirlpool, is well over 10 years old, I think coming up on 15, and is still working as well as ever. My two favorite things about it are that it’s very gentle with delicates, so we wash some stuff marked “dry clean only” with Woolite and the delicate cycle; and it’s large enough, without an agitator, that we can put sleeping bags in it.

  94. I need a top loader because the laundry room is configured for the dryer stacked on top of the washer. There isn’t room for another configuration.

  95. I need a top loader because the laundry room is configured for the dryer stacked on top of the washer. There isn’t room for another configuration.

    I’m not following. If the dryer’s on top of the washer, wouldn’t you need a front-loader?

  96. I’m not following. If the dryer’s on top of the washer, wouldn’t you need a front-loader?

    I’m writing gibberish.

    Yes, I need a front loader.

  97. To Anonymous with the money question
    Do whatever gives you the least worry. The key is to save, not to pick the best investment. But don’t lose sight of the fact that if you invest in a stock or bond fund or even in laddered FDIC insured cds, if you do go through the 50K or so in MM cash because of an emergency, you can always cash in a cd early and take a small interest hit or sell some fund units at a disadvantageous time. These are liquid investments – not real estate or collectibles.

    I’m on vacation so I’ll stay away from the heavy topics.

  98. If the country lacked the will to seriously restrict weapons access after a disturbed young man massacred 20 first-graders, the Orlando shooting isn’t going to move the needle.

    He was white. If people start fearing the “other” they will be all over it.

  99. I just finished watching the Tonys because I didn’t get to finish the whole show last night. I really enjoyed it this year even though I haven’t seen Hamilton yet.

    I only know the host, James Corden from carpool karaoke. I didn’t realize that he won his own Tony, or was so talented.

    The show seemed to strike the right tone about Orlando, but it was still very entertaining.

    Has anyone seen Hamilton? I tried a few times to get tickets, but I’m just going to wait. It’s so crazy now. My mother is going in a few months and she is beyond excited to finally see it.

  100. In case you missed it, evangelical Fhristians who didn’t read the Sermon on the amount–the majority of evangelicals, according to polls, were out in force today. In the Setmon on the Mount, Jesus says he came not to uphold the OT but to fulfill it. There is a passage in Paul’s letters those literalists might also want to take a look at–dreamt he was asleep on a rooftop and a bit much of birdies came down from heaven, carrying a picnic blanket just like in Cindarella,with bunches of food on it, including pork and cheese all mixed up together. Beain’t the good believer, the apostle says “I can’t do that. The (Jewish) laws don’t allow it!” And Goe tells him “screw the old laws”. Now, seeing as homosexuality is mentioned in Leviticus right along with tattoos and kosher and other things that Christians since then have tossed out the window, you’d think that would go too. I’m rusty on this, obviously did not brush up on it before writing it, but I’ve hit the highlights and know it better than a lot of Evangelicals, if you go by these posts. WCE can correct me on rough spots.
    http://thoughtcatalog.com/jacob-geers/2016/06/here-are-all-the-people-applauding-the-orlando-gay-club-shooter/

  101. My opinion is that 1 Corinthians chapter 6 prohibits various types of sexual conduct for Christians and that Paul recognized that Roman culture tolerated various types of sexual conduct that he prohibits there. In 1 Corinthians 5:12, Paul makes the statement I find most relevant to tolerance, which is “What business of mine is it to judge those outside the church?”

    Paul is describing sexual conduct in a Roman culture in which women have few rights and sexual conduct is based on power. Pederasty is probably the best word for what he is objecting to, along with orgies in temples. Tiberius was not a role model for sexual behavior.

  102. Im not going to write an opinion piece on this, because the news cycle has whizzed past so fast, but if I was, that’s what I would base it on.
    I’m angry that it has happened again, and still nothing is done about it. Three threads were braided together in this incident: Islamism (must be combatted internationally, primarily by not drone-bombing families in Syria, Yeman and elsewhere), bigotry against gay people (yes, marriage equality exists now, but it feels like we’ve had two steps back for that one forward), free flowing guns–the same assault weapon used in San Bernadino, Newtown, and other places I can’t remember. All came together to make this attack happen. None of them are surprises, and we haven’t done a damn thing about any of them.
    I am sad for the people who got shot and I feel compassion for their families and loved ones, and yes, my city is close enough that we will feel some effect. I’m not trying to be political, but something has got to move. Something has got to change!
    The reaction I find most offensive are the politicians crying crocodile tears, not mentioning the LGBTQ community, and not about to offend the NRA.
    What can we do in our daily lives? Sign a petition and go on as always? So many of the causes here are based in hate. Most of us don’t spend our daily lives actively hating–this group is too low drama for that ;). But keeping silent isn’t the same as saying no. We can say no to hate by making sure we say yes to love, yes to inclusion in simple little things. Don’t assume that the Muslim family won’t want to come to your cookout (and don’t be offended if they bring their own burgers). Accept the two-mommy and two-daddy (and one-parent) families as readily as you do families like your own. When you talk to kids, coworkers, friends, make sure that any examples you use could be Muslims or gay people or other people who you think of as different from you, and use specific little details once in a while that show that–dark brown, skin-colored shoes or whatever. This hate exists in large part because we let it go by unchallenged. It is rare to witness someone standing up and announcing their prejudice before taking a negative action. If you wait for that, you’ll never be part of the change. Make it common for you to announce your inclusivity. Like polyps building a reef, if we each take tiny actions (yes, this is stolen from James Scott), we can make a rock-solid wall of support for minority populations.

    Anyway, like I said; nowhere near ready to submit anything anywhere. Sorry if that last part is a little long.

    http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/ban-assault-weapons-now-4?source=s.fb&r_by=15234813

  103. The person who murdered 49 people in Orlando was a Muslim who took the trouble to make a 911 call during his rampage to proclaim his allegiance to ISIS. Islam condemns homosexuality and mandates death for gays.

    It’s hard to see how Christianity fits in here.

  104. Now I had to go and look it up. It’s in Acts 10.
    Peter’s Vision
    9 About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. 13 Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”

    14 “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”

    15 The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”

    16 This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.

  105. Islam commands the murder of homosexuals, a Muslim man on the FBI radar screen legally purchases guns and murders 49 people at a gay bar, and ordinary (and non-Muslim) Americans are somehow complicit in the carnage because we aren’t sufficiently tolerant and inclusive? Seriously?

  106. Scarlett, Muslims do not have a lock on homophobia in this country; several sects of Christianity in the US are more homophobic than Muslims in the US. Homophobia, including jokes and asides, is part of US culture and cannot be blamed on the tiny portion of our population who are Muslims.

    And Rhett asked how the numbers of homophobic Muslims compared with homophobic evangelical Cheistians. You’ve got those stats and more at that link.

    Like I said above, the attack is based on three factors, none of which can be reduced to the others: Islamism, homophobia, and easy access to machine guns.

  107. Why would it be surprising that a paper in a city the size of Kansas City (Missouri) would publish an article like that? Because people in flyover states are automatically intolerant? Maybe invite some of them to the cookout, too.

  108. Scarlett, neither the guy in Orlando nor the guy in California “came in” from anywhere. They are both natural-born US citizens who are sick of gay people taking over and who want their country back. So they both set out to do something about it. One got caught & the other didn’t is the main difference between them.

  109. Lark, I’m late to the thread, but I would go with a new tank heater over a tankless. We had a tankless at our old house; our current place has two new-ish tanks. We assumed we wouldn’t be as happy with them, but we like them so much more! Way faster to get hot water and we’ve never had an issue with it running out. And the efficiencies of new tanks are decent, plus of course tankless heaters are more expensive.

    On the scrap paper question, we use Evernote extensively. You can title scanned docs and save them to folders, etc. The great thing about Evernote is that we share the “Filing Cabinet” notebook and so always have access to everything on our phones for when we need some random piece of info. It has been great for cutting down on paper. We also got a super fast scanner which is awesome–I forget the name, will try to circle back with that info.

  110. “Homophobia & latent/repressed homosexuality”

    Isn’t this is pretty well known phenomenon? Pretty logical, in a twisted sort of way.

    I would hope that greater tolerance and acceptance of gays would mitigate the need of closeted gays to try to force others back in, or from leaving.

    It is encouraging to see how much difference there is between the attitudes of my kids and their peers to LGBTQ as compared to the attitudes when I was their age.

  111. Given that the Orlando murderer explicitly claimed an allegiance to ISIS during his rampage, the source of his homophobia is clear. Yes, we can indeed “blame” his actions on Islam, not on our allegedly homophobic culture.
    Read today’s WSJ piece by Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

  112. On a less divisive topic, did someone recently post about The Nightingale? I picked it up as a cheap Kindle deal and wondered whether it lives up to the hype. Tons of enthusiastic reviews on the Amazon page

  113. DW did not like the Nightingale, but she is more a dystopian teen fiction fan.

  114. I loved the Nightingale. Life in France during WWII was pretty dystopian, IMHO. I had to switch to lighter fare after I finished it.

  115. The scanner we have is the Fujitsu ScanSnap–it really is amazing if you have a lot of paper to scan, so it’s particularly helpful when you’re first trying to go paperless.

  116. June, that’s what I have too — the ScanSnap. It’s zippy!

  117. Off topic, I can’t wait to see this. Usually it’s not my thing but the voice on that woman! I think Milo would like it as well.

    If you want to skip to the good part it starts at 1:06.

  118. Isn’t that the musical by Steve Martin and Edie Brickell? I’d like to see it

  119. I missed the Tony Awards, I need to watch the performances later on YouTube

  120. HFN,
    Is Nightingale the sort of book that is difficult to read on a Kindle? I haven’t mastered the art of flipping through the pages on my device, and some kinds of books, like spy novels, seem to require a lot of looking back to see what was missed in distracted reading.

  121. “some kinds of books, like spy novels, seem to require a lot of looking back to see what was missed in distracted reading.”

    I know what you mean. This also happens when I put down a book for weeks or longer and then get back to it. I read almost exclusively on Kindle. I love it when occasionally books contain a list of characters with descriptions. I’ve developed the habit of highlighting passages that I think are important (such as the intro. of a character) as a way to be able to reference back when I might need some info as I get further into the book.

    I can’t remember if anyone here has Nest smoke detectors. I’m checking and might get all mine replaced with Nest but I see that NYS enacted a law requiring sealed 10-year batteries starting next year. One attractive feature is that the Nest website lists contractors that will install your detectors. For non-DIYers like us that’s appealing.

  122. ^ Nest detectors don’t have sealed batteries. I prefer the replaceable kind, but I’m sure NYS politicians made the right decision with their new regulation. *sarcasm*

  123. Speaking of maintenance items. If you get a low tire pressure warning in your car, when you fill up make sure to check the pressure in your spare. I read something reminding me to do that and when I went to check mine, I found that rather than 35psi it was 8psi

  124. Except for one or two, all my smoke detectors are wired. It’s a long story, but the non-wired locations are/were very hard to retrofit in my 90-yo house. To comply with regs we had to maintain an ADT-type service. Now I have the option to mix wired and non-wired and use the Nest system to connect all detectors. Or I can go all non-wired and cap the existing wires. In any case, this all gives me a headache. :)

  125. Rhett – I’ve lost track of what’s current on Broadway, but we’ll have to see that when it starts touring. Or maybe DW and I can sneak off for a trip there.

    This popped up on my FB feed. I have only limited experience in this kind of sailing, but I think the author describes it well. Before I was in a storm like this (a hundred miles or so from Nova Scotia), I just kind of assumed that sailing was peaceful with lots of wine and cheese:

    http://www.cruisingworld.com/transatlantic-trials?src=SOC&dom=fb#page-2

  126. I am totally obsessed with Hamilton, but I expect that I won’t see it until the second half of next year or when it comes to Boston, whichever is earlier. Plus they always release new tickets when I am already asleep! Gah. I also played the soundtrack for DH and he really likes it (!!!!). :)

  127. I read the Nightingale. I enjoyed it, and you can read it on a Kindle. Kristin Hannah is usually an easy read.

    I’m in the middle of our Totebag author’s new book. I like it, but this is a very tough week for me to sit with a book. Camp trunks leave soon, and any free time is spent shopping or packing.

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