How will Millennials change the workplace?

by Risley

I just saw this article in my Twitter feed and thought our group might enjoy discussing:

THIS IS HOW MILLENNIALS WILL CHANGE MANAGEMENT

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91 thoughts on “How will Millennials change the workplace?

  1. I’m on the fringe between X and Millennial, depending on which dividing date you choose, and I think it’s a bad idea to be friends with the people you manage.

    Friendly, yes, but friends, no.

  2. Exactly. I’m not quite a millennial, but I’m close. The past few decades has made the hospital workplace flatter, with more collaboration and less hierarchy. I had to learn, once I left residency, that I can’t go out and drink with my coworkers one night, and expect them to listen to orders the next day.

  3. It’s been quite a while, but that sounds a lot like the job I had when I first got out of college.

  4. They’re pinning business casual on Gen X? I swear that was a thing already when I started work — a newish thing, maybe, but a thing — and I’m on the earlier end of Gen X.

    And I agree with the other posters that there’s a reason prior generations learned to avoid friendships with those they supervised.

  5. “I can’t go out and drink with my coworkers one night, and expect them to listen to orders the next day.”

    In my first job(s) out of college, this happened quite a bit. But there wasn’t a lot of managers giving orders. We all knew what our jobs were, in part because of our performance reviews. And specific tasks were done because it made sense to do them.

    Typically, the closest to giving orders happened in a team setting when the team would determine what needs to be done, and that needed to be parsed out among team members; or when there were multiple project managers wanting someone to work on their projects, and a manager would need to make a priority call.

  6. Anon @10:52 was me. And my workplace is a little more dictatorial than others’. I’m friendly with coworkers, as Sky says, but no 1:1 relationships in the same workplace.

  7. I’m with HM on business casual– that was already the norm when I started work, and many of those dressing that way were baby boomers.

  8. Friendly: “how was your weekend?” ” Have a nice holiday”…things like that.
    Friends requires divulging personal info and hanging out outside of work

  9. I didn’t have business casual when I started to work. That came in my second job. Also, I do work-blend instead of work life balance. Not all positions lend themselves to work life blend but that was important to me and I took positions where this could be achieved. MBT was really helpful a couple of years ago and I realized that many were doing this, just not very publicly.

  10. In almost all my jobs I have been both friendly and friends with co-workers. Drinks after work were routine. Playing golf, visiting each other’s’ homes, and similar. Sometimes it was considered unfriendly if you didn’t socialize with co-workers and you might be dinged as not being a good team player. All that being said, there were times where the bosses were excluded from underlings’ social activities and vice versa.

  11. I agree with the idea of being friends with people you manage leading to problems down the road. I also wonder about the free flowing hours or the “personal life being part of work” ideas for hourly employees – how would that work?

    I think that there will be some subtle changes over time, but not quite the whole warm and fuzzy scenario that the article predicts. Deadlines have to be met and clients still expect results.

    I am at the tail end of the baby boom, but I must have left the workforce before business casual kicked in, or at least in my company. I was in my suit or dress (when pregnant) and pantyhose on my last day before I left to have DD!

  12. costofcollege – I was definitely friendly with co workers, but as you say, my peers, not so much the management. They were the only people I knew when I moved to a new city to start my job!

  13. Friendly: sharing the amount of information I would divulge to a new acquaintance (marital status, number and ages of kids, weekend/travel plans); socializing with the team or in a mentoring-type program but not one on one.

    Friends: sharing any information I would not want public (e.g., medical info beyond the minimum necessary for safety, frustrations with the workplace, kids or spouse); socializing one-on-one or with our spouses only.

  14. Hijack: I just bought tickets for a Maroon 5 concert next October. It’s become ridiculous how much in advance they are selling tickets for things these days.

  15. On topic – I think a lot of this sounds nice but may change a lot once they actually have real lives. I also think the mixing of personal and work time can be really insidious because then you never end up truly being “off”. That’s why I love the Winter Break so much. It is the one time that DH takes off and the rest of the world does too so he can really relax.

    Denver Dad – it is insane. I have no idea what I am doing in 8 months. Had to miss a concert recently that we bought for 6 mos in advance because it conflicted with band concert. I guess you can always wait and pay big bucks to the scalping sites.

  16. I hope the Millennials really do get rid of the butt-in-seat requirement. I always hated that, but I guess I was too much of an obedient little Baby Boomer to fight it (or even believe it could be fought). I agree that the self-absorption is going to conflict with client requirements, but I also think all 20-somethings in all generations are self-absorbed, so that’s nothing new. It’s just a painful lesson that you hopefully learn sooner rather than later.

  17. RMS, I agree about the face-time requirements, and I think they are going away for many jobs. What I disagree with in the article is the blending of work and personal time. I think it’s very unhealthy to not be able to shut off work.

  18. I think it’s very unhealthy to not be able to shut off work.

    What if it is the price to be paid for much less face time and much more flexibility?

  19. “What if it is the price to be paid for much less face time and much more flexibility?”

    ITA, but DW still complains about that aspect.

  20. ” I also think all 20-somethings in all generations are self-absorbed, so that’s nothing new. It’s just a painful lesson that you hopefully learn sooner rather than later.”

    Bingo. Same with learning the hard way that it’s not always a good idea to sh*t where you eat when it comes to over socializing with your coworkers. :)

    I’m not sure that Millenials are changing the work-life balance into work-life blend. I think it’s really just the advancement of technology.

    I have issues in general with the over-generalizations of generations. I am not just like everyone else in GenX, but I also bet that I am also not that different from 40-ish people everywhere and every time in recent history.

  21. What if it is the price to be paid for much less face time and much more flexibility?

    I think you can do both. Obviously it depends on the specific jobs, but in many jobs you can have the flexibility along with the ability to shut it off when you need to .

  22. I work at a site with virtually no one under 40, and I agree with Ivy that it is technology, not the Millenial generation, that is changing how work is done.

    I share Rhett’s observation that availability for work (in general, with opportunities to go off-grid at the National Park if planned) is the price to be paid for flexibility. I wish my job were MORE that way and I were rewarded for accomplishment, not butt-in-seat.

    A specific example of how technology has changed work is that now Mr WCE stays home when he has a cold. Half his team is 1000 miles away and even the people nearby would much rather he attend meetings with his monitor and headset than come in to breathe on them. Happily for me, his team’s openness to remote work lets him take most of the sick kid days.

  23. I think attitudes towards working remotely have changed too. I remember in one job, I had a laptop but I was never allowed to work from home. Even in bad weather it was expected that you brave the storm and endure the bad commute but never fire up your laptop. My brother overseas was forced to trudge into work during a transport strike even though he was late by almost three hours. This was a company that ironically wanted to embrace American efficiency – he told his manager that the Americans would be working from home if there were transport issues.

  24. Hijack: I just bought tickets for a Maroon 5 concert next October. It’s become ridiculous how much in advance they are selling tickets for things these days.

    A few years ago, when DD was a freshman in HS, one of her friends was coordinating the purchase of tickets to a One Direction concert that was over a year later. The girl buying the tickets was a relatively new friend, and one I wasn’t particularly fond of. We told DD no, that the family had no idea what we’d be doing at that time next year (mid-summer). DH and I also factored in the very real possibility (knowing how high school friendships go) that DD might not even be friends with the girl when the concert rolled around. (Which is exactly what happened.)

    It caused no end of grief in our house, though, because even though DD had told the girl “I need to check with my parents,” the girl went ahead and bought a ticket for her anyway and then wanted DD to pay for it. Which she didn’t do, and which may have contributed to the demise of the friendship. Good riddance.

  25. ” I was in my suit or dress (when pregnant) and pantyhose on my last day before I left to have DD!”

    that sounds miserable, pregnancy is bad enough near the end without having to wear pantyhose and a suit!

  26. A specific example of how technology has changed work is that now Mr WCE stays home when he has a cold. Half his team is 1000 miles away and even the people nearby would much rather he attend meetings with his monitor and headset than come in to breathe on them. Happily for me, his team’s openness to remote work lets him take most of the sick kid days.

    DW has a lot of flexibility with her job – her group is spread out all over the country, and even the local people work in different locations. Her hours are flexible and she can work from home if needed. At the same time, there is no expectation for her to be available during off hours.

    My job is similar. My hours are pretty flexible, and I can pretty much shut off work when I’m done. We have a triage team and designated on-call providers to handle issues after hours. If there’s an issue with one of my patients that they need my input on, I’ll get a call or text, but that’s very infrequent.

    So my experience is you can have the flexibility with the ability to not be on-call 24 hours a day.

  27. The concert ticket sales really have gotten crazy. How am I supposed to decide what am I doing 9 months from now?

    I like the flexibility vs. availability trade off. I would MUCH rather be interrupted via cellphone once in awhile on my evenings & weekends.

    I have the type of job where I always expect to be contacted at least once or twice for a quick question or consult on an issue while on vacation, but not the type of job where I am actually going to be working heavily through a vacation. Checking my phone at night for urgent issues is fine with me if it allows me to be able to be home for dinner most nights. At my level, I think those are pretty good bargains.

  28. Hoosier, my thinking is if we end up not being able to go, I won’t have a problem selling the tickets.

    I think attitudes towards working remotely have changed too.

    About 7-8 years ago at a previous job, the CEO made a big announcement about a company-wide initiation to become more eco-friendly. The immediate questions was “how about telecommuting?” His response was “It’s not going to happen as long as I’m here. I don’t believe in it.” I’m curious if he has softened his stance at all since I left.

  29. When the touring production of Wicked came to town, we bought our tickets about a year in advance. Overall, I think that worked for most people, as the producers were able to gauge the audience and end up with just enough shows to accommodate most people who wanted to see the show, but with all shows nearly full.

    Similarly, tonight there’s a Janet Jackson concert here, and tickets went on sale quite a while ago, but that was so far in advance that the promoters were able to add an extra show to meet demand.

    Anyone seen Book of Mormon?

  30. I like the flexibility vs. availability trade off. I would MUCH rather be interrupted via cellphone once in awhile on my evenings & weekends.

    Maybe I read too much into the “blending” in the article. I read it as pretty much a complete intermixing of work and personal time where you are never totally on for work and never totally off.

  31. Fred, I saw the Book of Mormon a few years ago. I thought it was good, but there was so much hype around it that it could never live up to the expectations.

  32. I am the beginning of Gen X and I have a different memory of how business casual came to finical firms. The reason it was finally allowed was that we couldn’t hire people in late 99/2000. One of the banks I worked with shared an office building with Double Click. It was during that really fun time when they built a basketball court on the roof, parties all day, and loads of money floating around. Motorcycles and new cars parked outside the building too. All BEFORE the dot com bust. It was so difficult to hire anyone that was under 30 that we actually used to do all of the interviews in one day. I remember that if we didn’t make an offer the same day – we would lose the person. It was a crazy time and it didn’t last long. It was during that time that the banks started to allow business casual as a perk. A few banks never allowed it, but it was a free perk that made people feel like they could compete with the dot coms – at least in NYC metro.

    I mentioned that I had a lot of free time yesterday because I took DD to see a friend that doesn’t live nearby. I stopped to see an old friend of mine that I met the very first day of work in a training program. We are very close friends – we socialize, weddings, kids etc etc. I did have to work for her for a year, and she eventually worked for me at a different bank. It was difficult, but it can be done. I think you just have to be more careful with what you share, but I have this same problem in my neighborhood. I am very cautious with some of my mom friends about what I tell them about personal stuff.

  33. I don’t think millennials will really be the harbingers of change that people keep predicted. We’ve already discredited some of the attributions in the article.

    A while back I read someone’s opinion that millennials are not really less racist than other generations, they just THINK they are. And with U of Missouri right now, that really rings true.

  34. I saw Book of Mormon. I thought it was creatively offensive – not just regular run-of-the-mill crudeness.

  35. Speaking of concerts, I just saw that Guns N Roses is thinking of getting back together!

  36. “I think a lot of this sounds nice but may change a lot once they actually have real lives.”

    Yeah, that. In my head, it was more like “gee, this sounds like the kind of worker-friendly workplace *everyone* since time immemorial has wanted when they were at the bottom of the totem pole. Wonder if they’ll feel the same when they’re the big boss?”

  37. Ditto Grocery Bags on BoM. It would have been really, really easy to go over into straight mockery, but they didn’t take the easy way out. Those boys are smart and just wickedly funny.

    DH, of course, hated it. Musicals, plays, blech.

  38. Denver, book of Mormon was fantastic! Didn’t think it could live up to expectations but it exceeded mine. Laugh out loud and No they didn’t say that out loud for two hours! Would see it again in a heart beat! GO!

    I remember when they had casual Friday and felt compelled to put a sign at the Reception desk that said “Although our attire is casual, our approach to business is anything but.” Ahh the good old days!

  39. I think I agree with GB and LfB. It was just a couple years ago we were told that Millenials were all eager to live downtown in walkable communities. That hasn’t been playing out, either:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/15/living-in-the-suburbs_n_7070586.html

    As for the workplace, if we accept the fact that there are a fair number of people who are motivated by job title (i.e., willing to work a lot more for only a little more money as long as they get a prestigious title out of it), I’ve wondered if this will diminish as we become a more transitory/mobile/company-hopping/contractor-heavy workforce.

  40. What struck me in the article was

    “Millennial managers will avoid formal annual performance reviews, replacing them with more frequent and informal feedback systems that allow for better communication between managers and employees.”

    Not the best road to self evaluation and positive change for people (of whom there are a fair number on this site) who have trouble decoding the messaging embedded in normal social and verbal encounters.

  41. “It was just a couple years ago we were told that Millenials were all eager to live downtown in walkable communities. That hasn’t been playing out, either:”

    that reminds me of that commercial where the guy says they are never getting married/having kids/moving to the suburbs/having another kid etc…..

  42. “I wish my job were MORE that way and I were rewarded for accomplishment”

    So you and others who want to get rid of the butt-in-seat-time or time on the production line, essentially, are saying pay me piecemeal? Or like when my e.g. plumber comes to the house, assesses the job, and says that’ll be $200, I’m paying him for a combination of his expertise, his time, and maybe some replacement parts (works for lawyers, too). Theoretically, then if $200/day gross was enough for him to live on he could just do one job/day and spend the rest of the day fishing. Great if you’re the owner.

    But as long as your paycheck comes from someone else, the boss, s/he is usually going to comp you at some hourly rate and want you there for an agreed-to number of hours per period (day/week). If I’m faster at doing spreadsheets, reviewing expense reports, coding, (back to RMS’ example from ago) than you, the boss gets more from me than from you, so I should be paid more. Short term, doesn’t work that way unless you pay me per piece/unit. Long-term, my skills should prove to be worth more in the marketplace in the form of better opportunities, promotions, raises, etc.

  43. Milo & LfB,

    I’m going to agree with Ivy that this is more about technological change. If you’re a millennial manager, you care more about Dave responding to his IMs and txts in a timely manner than where he happens to be located physically.

  44. @Meme — I just laughed at that. IME, people are absolutely horrid at giving negative feedback — it’s absolutely the hardest part of the job. The formal 6-month or annual review process may be stodgy and annoying, but it sure does force people to talk about the performance issues that are bugging them.

    Which, again, leads me back to: sure, sounds like a good idea now, while we’re all buddies at the bottom of the totem pole. But then you’ll have people who don’t give the ongoing feedback; then when you finally realize your buddy isn’t cutting it and you need to get rid of them, your lawyers will tell you you need documentation of poor performance; then you’re going to get sued, and you’re going to have to settle for a lot of $$ because you don’t have documentation.

    And then, lo and behold, in 10 years, you’re going to have a formal annual review process.

  45. Rhett – High demand, limited supply, population growth, etc. My point was that, as a generation, they’re not more likely to be “abandoning the suburbs” as the urban planners were eagerly anticipating just a couple years ago.

    Indeed,

    The millennial generation as a whole is not especially urban, as FiveThirtyEight economics writer Ben Casselman pointed out last month. According to the most recent detailed census data available, covering the years 2009 to 2013, 25- to 34-year-olds are slightly less likely to live in urban neighborhoods than 25- to 34-year-olds in 2000.

    http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-millennials-are-less-urban-than-you-think/

  46. I’m not sure lawyers can be more flexible. At least in big law. I know I pushed the edge at working from home, and it pissed my seniors off. Working hours were 10 to 8 period, suit required, except ultimately on Fridays, and one’s butt better be in one’s seat.

    Since I was so bad with face time once I became a father, all my clients had all my numbers. I didn’t much care if I could have the flexibility to deal with Junior.

    One morning, the nanny tried to pull Junior up from the floor. His shoulder became dislocated. (Apparently, this frequently happens and is easy to pop back– there’s even a name for it “Nursemaid’s Shoulder” or “Nanny’s Shoulder” or something, I don’t recall.

    Anyway, a 3 year old Junior had a useless, dead arm. I was panicked and racing out with him to the Dr.’s office. The phone rang. Of course, it was a client. This particular kid (and he was a kid– an associate general counsel or some such thing), and insisted that I answer a question. I said “Later, I’m taking Junior to the Doctor, his arm doesn’t work.” He told me this would just take a second. I said “No, I’m going” and the little shit said that I worked for him and reiterated that this was only going to take a second. I was sweating bullets. Junior seemed in no distress– it wasn’t hurting him– and I stayed on the phone with this little shit for about 20 minutes. I was furious and that came through on the conversation.

    Of course,, the turd talked to the General Council who stirred up our managing partner to complain. Although I was not fired, that was the last deal I did for that client (which was probably 70% of my business). After that, things cooled considerably with my career in Biglaw and after 30 years– most as a partner, I was pretty much pushed out.

    Not a happy story, although Junior was just fine– the doctor just popped the thing back in, Junior had full movement of his arm and all was good.

  47. @PTM: Wow. That sucks.

    This is actually the biggest generational change I have seen. 10 years ago, if I had a kid thing, I had a “meeting out of the office.” Now almost all of my clients are in the same situation I am — they are just as likely to have schedule constraints for kid stuff as I am. If I had that issue, my clients’ response would be “OMG, what are you doing answering the phone?”

    Of course, I also don’t work in a big-power-testosterone-laden field, either. And you’ve basically just illustrated why.

  48. Fred, in a few years, I hope to change to a corporate job more like Mr WCE’s. By then, perhaps more of the local companies will be open to telecommuting so that waiting for a package or contractor is less problematic.

    I know people (IT) who could easily have done their university jobs remotely but that isn’t accepted. Here, private companies seem more accepting of telecommuting than public employers.

  49. Finn,

    I think but in seat time means two things which are related.

    1. Judging an employee largely on how many hours per day they are in the office.

    2. Insisting that work be done during specific hours at a specific place.

    In the old days everyone had to be physically in the office from 9-5. But now, you can work 7-3 so you can pick up your kids, go to spin, etc. And, if the folks in CA need you to be on call at 6pm you can work 7-2 and then dial in to the call at 6.

  50. High demand, limited supply,

    Then it’s not so much that the millenials are getting more urban, it’s the rich who are now more urban.

  51. Down here, Rhett, it seems that the kids run to the suburbs (formerly known as the Everglades) once they have kids. Our condo boom downtown which with a few starts and stops has been going on for over a decade. Yet downtown Miami remains deserted at night. Nobody lives there. Most of the condos are owned by foreign investors– primarily from S. America.

    Remember, Miami Beach is a different city. Lots of young, rich, childless young professionals over there.

  52. “it’s the rich who are now more urban.”

    I haven’t seen any evidence of that (urban, vs. building mega mansions outside of Nashville, or renovating something in Palm Beach). I’d say that as we’re getting into the third generation post-Great Depression, post-WWII, post-GI Bill, you’re seeing a lot of Millenials who, in one way or another, have their parents’ and grandparents’ money to spend on real estate. In areas where space and supply are constrained, they can drive the prices up rapidly.

  53. Remember, Miami Beach is a different city. Lots of young, rich, childless young professionals over there.

    My understanding is that c. 197X Miami Beach was mostly poor and elderly?

  54. WCE, I would think that a lot of jobs in your field are among those that really require physical presence, being able to actually see and work on the equipment, do visual inspections of wafers, probe test patterns, etc.

  55. “it’s the rich who are now more urban.”

    That’s been happening for years. Living in the urban areas requires some combination of a lot less house for the money and a lot of money.

  56. I think that people my age whose kids have grown are buying a lot of these new high-end condos. I read somewhere about urban millennials who moved into these communities only to discover that Their Parents were moving in down the hall and crowding the bars and restaurants and the onsite gyms. Sort of like when parents and grandparents discovered Facebook and the kids had to find another place to play.

  57. “My understanding is that c. 197X Miami Beach was mostly poor and elderly?”

    Rhett, I was not down here then. I think your description was right. I first visited Miami Beach in around 1984 when a few of the art deco apartments were being turned into trendy new boutique hotels, Central Falls had just opened it’s S. Beach outpost, south of Fifth was a wasteland (only Joe’s old building) and aside from Collins and Ocean Drives were starting to happen. Two blocks west and 10 blocks north were the old, ramshackle art deco buildings with lots of really old New York retirees, Jewish delis and the like.

    I remember telling my friend that I wanted to buy something on the beach, but then we flew back and I got busy at work (story of my life).

  58. “I think that people my age whose kids have grown are buying a lot of these new high-end condos.”

    Anecdatally, I know of several retired couples who moved from suburban homes to high-end condos in town. One reason typically cited is not needing to maintain a house and yard.

  59. Winemama – it was awful! Luckily toward the end when I was huge I wore some Laura Ashley-style jumpers and they were long enough that I could sneak by with knee-hi’s (but I did have to careful when climbing stairs or crossing my legs that my secret didn’t show).

    I have hated pantyhose all my life – I never like to wear tights when I was a kid – and I am thrilled that most women don’t have to wear them everyday anymore.

  60. As an older sort of guy, at least in physical years, if I had my druthers, I’d move to an apartment in the sky with water views. Why live in S. FL if it looks Iowa (without the corn) and has the traffic of Houston or LA otherwise?

    Since we are moving for high school, I broached the subject with Junior who is adamantly opposed. He likes the theory of a yard to play in, as if he ever goes outside. And then there’s the cat. He spends his days outside, comes in at night and for meals and to avoid afternoon monsoons. I don’t think I could live with an unhappy indoor cat.

    Since The Villages don’t have them and that’s my next stop after high school, I’m pretty sure I’ll never again live in an apartment in the sky. I had my chance in NYC but I lived in a Soho loft on the 4th floor.

  61. Milo – I wonder if that increase in 25-34 year olds living in the suburbs ties is due to the higher percentage of 18-34 year olds still living with their parents?

    In San Francisco we have had quite a few tech companies open offices downtown instead of Silicon Valley (it got started when the city gave incentives for Twitter to say downtown instead of going out to the suburbs). Young people want to live in the city, not the suburbs, which has also led to the development of Google Buses for those whose offices are still in SV.

    We have a terrible dearth of housing here, and I am curious to see what will happen down the road when 1) the 20 somethings get married and have kids and/or 2) there is another tech bubble burst or recession

  62. Ssk, my friends in their late 30s near you are postponing kids because of the real estate problem. They are well paid professionals, but there are no 2 bedroom apartments they can afford to rent or buy.

  63. We have tons of apartment buildings coming up. What developers are trying to go is develop mixed use neighborhoods. From the neighborhoods developed around ten years ago, the population is a mix of young professionals, empty nesters. People of middle age who live in apartments are usually single. Hardly any families with kids because there are great affordable neighborhoods which are child friendly and people with kids in this area would rather buy a house than condo for the outdoor space.

  64. SSK I asked that recently of some of my Bay Area colleagues with kids who are newly graduated or married. Most seem to be leaving the area for Arizona, Vegas, or Sacramento. They all said their kids couldn’t afford to live there. Do you anticipate any of yours staying in the area? Do young people share apartments more or commute longer?

  65. MBT, I think couples moving out of the Bay Area to raise families has been going on for a long time. I’m going to guess that WCE has met some; her neck of the woods was one fairly common destination for techies moving out to raise families.

  66. I just got caught up on the posts this week and wanted to say Welcome Back Scarlett! I’m so glad to hear your voice of wisdom will be back.

  67. MBT – DD lived here for two years after graduation. She had a wonderful but very expensive apartment on Russian Hill for one year with one roommate, then moved to a less expensive place with three bedrooms in another neighborhood that is still very nice and fun, but not one “the” neighborhoods. They were lucky with the second place because it only had one bathroom, and all of the newer places have one bathroom for every bedroom (so they can charge more).

    I think they do the sharing thing more than moving away, at least while single and early to mid 20’s. Three or four people in a 2 bedroom, maybe using the dining room or living room as someone’s room.

    She recently moved out of state (transferred with her company) to be with her long time boyfriend. I think if she would have stayed in the city if she hadn’t left the Bay Area, but we would probably have had to help her with a downpayment on a condo if that was the long term plan. We may still do that down the road with a house, if we are able, but certainly she will get more for her money elsewhere!

    It seems like a lot of the young people are from out of state, at least from my conversations with Taxi and Uber drivers in the neighborhoods that the 20 somethings want to be in. Many of them may move back to their home state after their adventure in San Francisco, probably as many do in New York.

    I have heard of people going to Portland and Seattle, plus Austin, Denver and Sacramento.

    I don’t know what is going to happen with housing; there are a lot of units in the pipeline that were approved during the recession but are now just being built. However we are back on the bandwagon of NIMBY housing – everyone agrees it is a problem, but no one wants new apartments in their neighborhood.

  68. DH’s young tech friends seem to have all left SF area for NYC or TX. The people that I know who are still there are living in crappy places they bought maybe 5 years ago for $1.5M plus.

  69. Well, this would seem to support Scarlett’s notion: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/12/your-money/giving-up-the-affluent-suburbs-for-city-living.html?ref=realestate

    This in particular seems like retirement heaven for me: “They made a large apartment out of two units just a couple of blocks from their season-ticket seats for Capitals hockey and Wizards basketball.” No maintenance, walk to restaurants and events and parks, reliable public transport for everything else, maybe a nice balcony for some evening refreshment — man, as long as they keep crime down, I’m in.

    PS — I just caught up and figured out who Scarlett is, so welcome back — really good to hear from you!

  70. My city is somewhat like Portland, Seattle or Denver (but less hip, I guess) for all the transplants from the Northeast. I think for a twenty something, if you live in the city on the light rail or in the close in neighborhoods there is plenty to do. If you have a professional job, even better.
    The daughter of a co worker is thinking of moving to LA for an unpaid internship. She wants to do something related to movies/TV. I don’t know if she is thinking of a short or a long term move. Her parent has had the talk about a paying job…..

  71. I would prefer Rhett’s in town neighborhood to my walkable inner ring suburb, even though we would sacrifice square footage, the second car, and free cash flow. We could walk to the symphony and the Sox. But DH would not. And for now, we still need the space for visiting kids and the grand piano. It really doesn’t make sense for me to downsize into a small apartment before I have to make the late life move to DC area to be near the designated daughter.

  72. I could see having a two-bedroom city condo in addition to the lake house surrounded by trees that change color in the Fall. It wouldn’t have to be a big city, either.

  73. “If you’re a millennial manager, you care more about Dave responding to his IMs and txts in a timely manner than where he happens to be located physically.”

    Yes, and we Gen X managers are the ones getting irritated more by slow responses to IMs and texts. ;)

    Anecdotally, we know quite a few empty nesters who have moved back downtown. Some keep two houses – the big suburban house and a small condo near the office/downtown/restaurants/etc. We never plan to leave the city, but I would very much like an apartment in the sky with an elevator for our next place to live in until we forced to go to Shady Acres.

    The 20-somethings on my team all cram with college friends or random friends-of-friends into the same apartments in the same neighborhoods that I did 15 years ago. One of them is literally in the same apartment building where I lived in 2002, which is kind of funny. The new grads we hire seem eager to move out of their parents’ houses, but usually work a few months to save money & organize the group, and then move. These are the kids who grew up around here – there are some from out of state, but we don’t usually get them right out of school like the locals back from Flagship or Directional State U.

  74. If they confirm that it was, indeed, the Brit “Jihadi John” killed in the drone strike, are we going to find out his backstory?

  75. “I could see having a two-bedroom city condo in addition to the lake house surrounded by trees that change color in the Fall. It wouldn’t have to be a big city, either.”

    Yeah, that. ITA that it doesn’t need to be a big city — just big enough to have stuff to do/walk through (I adored Colorado Springs, for ex., although that’s probably a little too small for the permanent “downtown” existence). Also agree with the joy of having a place to escape to for privacy and green — except I’d need sufficient resources to have a caretaker while I’m not there, or it would defeat the purpose of not having to fret about maintenance. :-)

    Maybe my ideal “unlimited $$” retirement is condo in Manhattan, condo in Taos, and condo in Turks & Caicos. Though I could see having a house in Taos, just for the privacy and quiet.

  76. A typical arrangement for comfortable but not unlimited $$ older retirees is to own the prime Cape/Maine/Islands vacation house and spend a lot of time there except in the dead of winter, rent a year round apartment in the metro area where they raised their family (convenient to their remaining local activities, not necessarily in town), and if so inclined rent a place in their favorite warm climate for two months. The other common pattern is 183 plus days in the Florida condo for tax reasons, the rest of the year in a MA condo. But most of the retirees I know in their late 70s have attended grandchildren’s high school graduations already – there isn’t any particular reason to stay local for recitals or babysitting or hockey games and the snow is a PITA.

  77. You could put me down for a small place in the heart of Chapel Hill, for football and basketball seasons, and a larger beach house on Amelia Island, to take advantage of Florida’s lack of income tax & Jacksonville’s great airport. That would be a perfect retirement set up.

  78. Sigh. I can see I’m going to be the only one living in The Villages from this group.

  79. PTM – This is more the plan for 50-80. Then it might be time for the Villages, but still keep the lake house in the family.

  80. “the snow is a PITA”

    I, OTOH, have contemplated buying a retirement place in snow country, not unlike LfB’s Taos place.

    Were I to get more serious about this, a couple of options I would consider:

    -Buy a place, turn it over to a management company, but with one or two weeks a year reserved for my use (I believe if I limit my use to less than 15 days/year I can consider the place entirely a rental).

    -Timeshare.

    But OTOH (yes, three hands), I enjoy trying out different ski areas, so I’m not likely to actually pull the trigger.

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